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Thread: Narcotics: It is Time For Me To Say Goodbye

  1. Default Narcotics: It is Time For Me To Say Goodbye

    I have been a Chronic Migraine sufferer for years. I had first migraine when I was 10. I used to sing a song when I was young that would go:


    Headache, headache go away
    Don’t come back another day


    That was 40 years ago. Now I see a Pain Management doctor (as I have posted about a million times on here). I get Botox every three months and 60 pills of Norco monthly.


    Recently my H called my Pain Magement doctor and flew off the handle. He spoke to his assistant and basically said “your are prescribing an opiate, a medication that turns everyone into an addict”.


    The next week I went in to his office for the Botox. We spoke about my H calling and he said this is common complaint he gets from the family of his patients. He gave me the number of a psychiatrist he uses to assess whether I am addicted or not. He gave me a prescription saying “to assess continuation of narcotic prescription”.


    I saw the psychiatrist yesterday. He released me and gave me a prescription that said “to continue narcotic prescription”.


    But this was after we had a long conversation. When I said that I was there because of my H it made sense to the Psychiatrist. He said normally I see the patients of the Pain DR who are prescribed the narcotic daily and I speak to them about trying other treatments such as CBD and medical marijuana. But yours isn’t that case. You don’t take yours daily. Yours is about getting therapy and discussing whether you should take the power back from your H and possibly divorce him and switch to Medical Marijuana and CBD.” You have my number because I can do both.


    But my H is right. I was googling Chronic Pain and Addiction Psychiatry and came to conclusion the anybody who takes narcotics on a regular basis undergoes a brain transformation. They cannot function without narcotics. This is what happened to me. Without taking a dose I cannot process things in a logical fashion. I went to see the Psychiatrist and didn’t take narcotics that day and couldn’t even discuss WHY I was there. So to get off narcotics I have to wean myself off not just go cold turkey.


    Which is why I am here. To get advice from people on how to wean myself off and to hopefully restore my brain to logic functions. Obviously I shall take this up with my Pain Doctor. But any advice would mean a lot to me.


    PS: I have no opinion on anybody who takes narcotics requlary on here. I just know what they did to me.
    Last edited by File Error 500; 05-18-2018 at 07:22 PM.

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    I wish you well and hope that you can get the pain relief that need. I've been on a different medication and take mine on a daily basis so our situation might be very different. In my case I've decided that the current rules and restrictions are overwhelming to me and have been wearing myself off the medication in a very slow manner.

    For what it's worth, my old dosage was two - 20 mg tablets in the am and one - 20 mg tablet in the pm. I started the taper by moving one of the morning pills up (later) an hour at a time. If I felt it was going too fast (understand that I've been on this dose for almost 15 years), then I'd hold at that same time until I felt comfortable then would move it up again. Once it got close to the pm dose, I dropped that pill.

    Then I asked my doctor for my prescription to be in 10 mg tablets. At that point is was 20 mg in the am and 20 mg in the pm. So with the 10 mg dose I started the same thing but moving one of the evening tablets up and hour over time until I was at two 10 mg in the am and one 10 mg in the pm.

    Since you mentioned that you don't take your medication daily I'm not sure this would work for you but is it possible to get your prescription in smaller dosages and reduce that way? Sometimes delaying by just a short amount of time can be helpful until your body adjusts.

    Again I wish you well. Personally I'm back dealing with chronic pain that nothing controls but I'm hoping that once the weed stores open here, I'll be able to have some alternative.

  4. @Bawston your plan is doable and the fact that it comes from someone who suffers from Migraines I really appreciate it.

    Could you please tell me the timetable that you were on? Was it just when you felt ready to drop or was it on this date you will drop.

    Because I am being shipped 20 MG Oxy IR. I think if I figure out what my baseline is and go from there it is very doable.

    I am getting CBD in the mail l next week. Which should help me a lot in terms of pain, anxiety and insomnia. As far as medical marijuana it is legal. So I am going to research it and plan on switching over.

    Thank you gave me a lot of food for thought.
    Last edited by File Error 500; 05-19-2018 at 03:00 PM.
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    I recommend cbd too, it is helpful but not an opiate so don't expect the same thing. If you are in a mj legal state, that helps a lot too. PK users who also use mj or cbd are able to use less of the pk's.

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    Shouldn't the people who got you onto the PKs be doing something to help you taper off them?
    In the UK you would get help coming off an opiate based PK from your GP and/or a drug counselling service,they used to be NHS but are now some private outfit out-sourced by NHS,hope you can find some help, if done right and with decent support from your GP it should be a lot easier than trying to do it on your own.best of luck again.
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    I also have decided to wean off of tram. In reality, I've never been better since I started taking it. But the ordering is so stressful. I plan to do a taper as well. Best of luck to you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by File Error 500 View Post
    @Bawston your plan is doable and the fact that it comes from someone who suffers from Migraines I really appreciate it.

    Could you please tell me the timetable that you were on? Was it just when you felt ready to drop or was it on this date you will drop.

    Because I am being shipped 20 MG Oxy IR. I think if I figure out what my baseline is and go from there it is very doable.

    I am getting CBD in the mail l next week. Which should help me a lot in terms of pain, anxiety and insomnia. As far as medical marijuana it is legal. So I am going to research it and plan on switching over.

    Thank you gave me a lot of food for thought.
    @File Error 500... I just decided that I was done with jumping through hoops and feeling like a criminal getting a prescription that I'd never abused so after my doctor hit me with a surprise urine test, I said "I'm done!" For memthat was just a humiliating experience. Without mentioning anything to my doctor I started the taper of moving that first am pill up and hour. The first couple of days were the hardest because my body was expecting the meds at specific times so that first week I would sometimes hold at and hour and stay there for a couple days then move up again.

    I'm at 1/3 my old dose right now and I think I'm going to hold at that at least until I see a new orthopedic doctor because my back and neck have been really causing problems to the extent that I'm in a recline position most days. Hopefully I can try a cortisone shot to take down the nerve pain.

    Now funny younshould mention the CBD oil because I was just looking into that and have heard that it could be the best for migraines, especially those with nausea and vomiting. It seems that you can just buy it online and I'm going to give it a shot. I spent yesterday with vomiting every 15 minutes and that old ice pick in the eye.

    I don't know if this applies to you but if you get severe vomiting look up "cyclic vomiting syndrome" - it's sometimes called chronic but I read that and said that's EXACTLY me! As it turns out I've tried most treatments other than CBD.
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  9. #8
    My daughter used to suffer from migranes until we figured out the cause was TMJ. After treatment for TMJ, she suffers much less from them.

    I wish you well on your taper @File Error 500!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommygun View Post
    Shouldn't the people who got you onto the PKs be doing something to help you taper off them?
    In the UK you would get help coming off an opiate based PK from your GP and/or a drug counselling service,they used to be NHS but are now some private outfit out-sourced by NHS,hope you can find some help, if done right and with decent support from your GP it should be a lot easier than trying to do it on your own.best of luck again.
    @tommygun...I don't know about all,doctors but I think most would help however, in many cases they just don't have the knowledge about how to do it and would probably refer to a pain clinic. The current status of drug counseling and rehab here in very inadequate and poorly funded even though it's one of those hot political talking points.

    In my case, when I told my doctor that I was tapering (I'd already started doing it my way), she jumped right in and said "oh no, you have to do it this way using short term oxycodone....". You see she'd take ONE class on this. I just told her that I was more comfortable doing it my way in my timeframe. Once you tell them you want to stop I think they have this formula and timetable that you must follow which might not work for everyone. Those with the best success rates are people who are committed to doing it on their own without pressure from others.
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by Bawston View Post
    @tommygun...I don't know about all,doctors but I think most would help however, in many cases they just don't have the knowledge about how to do it and would probably refer to a pain clinic. The current status of drug counseling and rehab here in very inadequate and poorly funded even though it's one of those hot political talking points.

    In my case, when I told my doctor that I was tapering (I'd already started doing it my way), she jumped right in and said "oh no, you have to do it this way using short term oxycodone....". You see she'd take ONE class on this. I just told her that I was more comfortable doing it my way in my timeframe. Once you tell them you want to stop I think they have this formula and timetable that you must follow which might not work for everyone. Those with the best success rates are people who are committed to doing it on their own without pressure from others.
    Exactly.

    In the US whether you do with your DR or detox there all about detoxing someone from opiates in about 5-7 days. Though you remove the drug from the body you still have the brain which is in PAWS. PAWS lasts about six months to one year. PAWS is brain is trying to balance itself.

    If you go thru a Detox Facilty you have counselors who only care about getting the patient to stay for rehab. They don’t care about anything else.

    Then you throw the 12 STEP Program at the patient and they have a huge failure rate where people return to the drug of choice. Plus, the NA Program is dangerous. I am not going into a room full of heroin addicts and then they jump me or follow me to my house and steal from me because they have to get their next fix.

    This is why I started this thread in the first place. To get ideas on how to administer it at home. Thank you @Bawston you have been a HUGE help.
    Last edited by File Error 500; 05-20-2018 at 01:24 PM.
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  12. I'm no expert, but I've been on and off myself a number of times. The best advice I can offer you is to go as slow as you need to, and do NOT impose a timetable on yourself. To do it right, it's going to take time. This is problematic if you are in a relationship with someone that does not understand this - they may not comprehend that it can take months and sometimes even years to get fully free from a long-term habit. You really need people around you to be fully understanding of the effort involved. Sadly, many doctors don't even get this.

    A few things I've learned from past experiences.....usually, at the outset of a tapering regimen, you can take a sizeable first reduction without too much discomfort. However, subsequent reductions should be very modest, small enough to where you are barely cognizant of the drop. And only go down when you are fully comfortable at your current dose. Don't get impatient and try to take big reductions, and don't force reductions according to a pre-defined schedule, it doesn't work.

    Last thing, don't get discouraged if you cheat along the way. Let's face it, life sucks, and people can be total shits (especially, it seems, when your trying to get clean), and there are going to be those times when you just need a bit more to get you through a bad patch. Don't get down on yourself when this happens. Just get back on track as soon as you can and keep working at it.

    I hope some of this helps you.
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    @File Error 500... I just now saw this article on a new type of preventive migraine treatment. I'm not sure if it's something that I'd benefit from since the Botox treatments have taken my migraines down to 1-3 per month but I thought of you when I read this. It also looks like a few more treatments are in the pipeline.

    I did have to laugh at what they consider "affordable and reasonably priced"

    https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/amg...y-6900-a-year/
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  14. @File Error 500, what is your dh's objection? you might research the difference between dependence and addiction and explain it to him. if you are abusing meds, that is an issue, but are you the one who wants to stop taking the pk or is it just him?

    i'm not trying to dissuade you. i'm just worried that since you are in a pm and it's going well, you might find it hard to find the motivation if you are simply trying to make him happy. chronic pain also changes your brain, and the important issue is your quality of life. he wouldn't object to insulin, so why is chronic pain not worthy of treatment?

    tapering slowly is the best but it requires will power and dedication. some people find it easier to go cold turkey for that reason. just make sure you are doing this for yourself. i wish you the best.
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by notcharlotte View Post
    @File Error 500, what is your dh's objection? you might research the difference between dependence and addiction and explain it to him. if you are abusing meds, that is an issue, but are you the one who wants to stop taking the pk or is it just him?

    i'm not trying to dissuade you. i'm just worried that since you are in a pm and it's going well, you might find it hard to find the motivation if you are simply trying to make him happy. chronic pain also changes your brain, and the important issue is your quality of life. he wouldn't object to insulin, so why is chronic pain not worthy of treatment?

    tapering slowly is the best but it requires will power and dedication. some people find it easier to go cold turkey for that reason. just make sure you are doing this for yourself. i wish you the best.
    ME. I want to stop using the PK.

    I have battled antidepressant, benzodiazepines, tramadol, cigarettes and was successful. I know you don’t know me, but do a search on the forum you will examples of all of these.

    Also, to be successful in anything you have to come up with plan to address all aspects that might come up. I have.

    My H is a supportive and gives excellent advice. I am a strong woman, but to ask him for advice is good for our marriage.

    Thank you for your concern. It does mean a lot to me.
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  16. Quote Originally Posted by GreenThumb View Post
    I'm no expert, but I've been on and off myself a number of times. The best advice I can offer you is to go as slow as you need to, and do NOT impose a timetable on yourself. To do it right, it's going to take time. This is problematic if you are in a relationship with someone that does not understand this - they may not comprehend that it can take months and sometimes even years to get fully free from a long-term habit. You really need people around you to be fully understanding of the effort involved. Sadly, many doctors don't even get this.

    A few things I've learned from past experiences.....usually, at the outset of a tapering regimen, you can take a sizeable first reduction without too much discomfort. However, subsequent reductions should be very modest, small enough to where you are barely cognizant of the drop. And only go down when you are fully comfortable at your current dose. Don't get impatient and try to take big reductions, and don't force reductions according to a pre-defined schedule, it doesn't work.

    Last thing, don't get discouraged if you cheat along the way. Let's face it, life sucks, and people can be total shits (especially, it seems, when your trying to get clean), and there are going to be those times when you just need a bit more to get you through a bad patch. Don't get down on yourself when this happens. Just get back on track as soon as you can and keep working at it.

    I hope some of this helps you.
    Thank you.

    I have took notes! Seriously, I didn’t know that the most significant cut you can take it on the onset. It good to know. Although I didn’t start the process I might as already started it. Because the PKs that I take are not enough, I should take more, I am anxious, manic, cannot sleep and have moments where I just get confused as my brain is trying to reset itself. Tomorrow I should get the CBD and will take it three times a day. They should help.

    Regarding support from my DR and H. I never have trusted DRs to take me or anyone seriously. As my H, he is really happy that I agree with him. He is a supportive partner. He gives good advice with regards to exercise and eating healthy. Which is very important that I do exercise and eat every two hours because it will help my brain refocus.
    Last edited by File Error 500; 05-21-2018 at 05:21 PM.
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    @File Error 500, I feel your pain and can relate to a lot of what you've posted. I've been on Trams for many years and have several successful quits and unfortunate fails.
    Here is an awesome forum site you might want to check out:
    https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/

    They have many different groups...12-stepers, faith based, do it yourselfers, etc. and lots of caring, informed people...much like this forum but with one focus. I always recommend them
    because I was once helped there many years ago and will never forget the awesome support I got from people!
    I've never been much into the 12-stepers but I strongly believe in support groups, online or in person! It never hurts to ask for help and you can always take what you need and leave the
    rest.
    Sincerely wishing you luck, love and understanding! Take care of YOU!
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    It's funny that we were just talking about the state of rehab here in the US and although I've never dealt with these, I know people who both work in rehab and those who need help. In any case, I kept hearing that there was a big problem because of the small number of patients a center could take if they wanted reimbursement. After watching this John Oliver segment on rehab I think the LEAST of their problems is the number of people they can admit! I am horrified by what is happening and can't believe how little oversight there is. (Just a note, if you're offended by the F word, you might not want to watch).

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hWQiXv0sn9Y
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  19. John Oliver segment was really good! Too bad he didn’t consider rehab in the hospital.

    As I said a few posts above this, I have had experience with the detox in the hospital to get over benzodiazepines. I know that I have posted this story before, but it is beneficial for me to post it here.

    Several years ago I went to detox in the hospital in the NYC area, a private Catholic one. I spent 11 days there to reduce the benzodiazepines in my system. I did get PAWS as a result.

    The drug counselor had one thing in mind, to sign me up for rehab. I said “no” as I walked out I heard him on the phone saying that “*** doesn’t want rehab”. Then I was nothing but blip on his radar. He made an appointment for me me to see an outside rehab counselor but didn’t even say anything about it. I had to ask another drug counselor to help. I saw my drug counselor at a grocery store a few months ago, I was mad.

    The reason I didn’t go to rehab was their rehab wasn’t very good. It was horrible. They offered the 12 Step program but hadn’t had posters or brochures for you to take. The posters they did have were for NA but AA, although there were several detoxing from alcohol in the hospital. They had some thing that was related to the 12 step program. They had each 12 step on a sheet of paper and had the patients fill it out to go over and write how they related to the step in their life. But, there weren’t any meetings for this AND someone said to me “did you notice that each step is the same.”

    Nonetheless, I organized the stand they were on because I had nothing else to do. I was bored for hours at a time. I cleaned up the kitchen which had TONS of old patients colored paper and pens in a craft session which they don’t have anymore. The kitchen was the only room for people to sit. They did not have a community room. They had a TV in the kitchen but it was monitored. Breaking Bad was rebroadcast at the time and the patients loved watching it, but we only got to see it piecemeal. All they had for the patients was to go to 12 Step meetings and eat.

    Their food was abysmal. I must have lost a few pounds while I was on there. We didn’t have the luxury of picking our menu as they do for other hospital patients. That was done for us. I have problems with meat if I don’t know where it came from. Including restaurants. You could tell the kitchen you were vegetarian but they ignored you. So every meal was beef stroganoff, chicken marsala and tilapia dressed it who knows what. There breakfast was processed eggs. The only thing The only thing I could eat was cereal. The soup was water. So I starved.

    They didn’t have a refrigerator full of snacks for us to grab. It was empty. When you are coming off drugs and alcohol it is imperative that you eat and eat healthy. Some days they had canisters full of saltine, graham crackers, Oreos, Lorne Dunn shortbread cookies, peanut butter and jelly, but that were gone by the end of the day. Patients were hungry. The kitchen was supposed to bring up daily cheese and bread for us to make sandwiches. Either they forgot or someone was stealing it.

    We did have snacks that were provided to us on the outside of the hospital as there were caring people on the outside like nuns. But I don’t think that chocolate chip cookies and Hershey bars are good for you in the first place. I never eat them at home. To think that you would give drug and alcohol addicts sugar which they crave is a good thing, I disagree with you.

    There was one drug counselor who was a bitch. Several patients hated her. She complained that I didn’t go to a 12 Step AA meeting to other people. She didn’t understand that I had a migraine, I am not there for alcohol and as part of the detox program attendance in the 12 Step meetings were not required. It was just one meeting that I missed, I went to meetings though I didn’t have to. I had nothing else to do.

    When it was time to release me, they let someone go ahead of me. They had a list from NYS pharmacy of the prescription which I get. They crossed off all of them, including non-controlled scripts. They gave me a list of meetings in the area. The thing is, with AA they hate NA. So I would not go to an AA meeting. As far as NA, where I live it is full of heroin addicts who would jump me considering that I am middle aged, white woman who dresses well. So I would not go to a NA meeting either.

    That was my experience in a Catholic hospital for alcohol and drug addiction. I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone to go there. Would you?
    Last edited by File Error 500; 05-29-2018 at 11:09 AM.

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    @Bawston...I've been wanting to watch the link you posted...just did and literally was LMAO! {I am now a John Oliver fan as well...man is spot on!} Sad, sick but sooo true!
    I was in rehab many years ago (Vicodin addiction) and have quite some stories to tell, but will save for another time, only to add that it was a crazy 4-day ride, I almost got thrown out, got in an argument with
    the stupid Psychologist lady first day, had to call Patient Advocates on their ass to keep me on my prescribed dose of Xanax which I had never abused (they gave me Klonopin)...and they weaned me off the Vics
    with what do you think?...Tramadol!! LOL! I researched the place myself and this small town gal went to the big city and was thrown in with a mix of addicts and it was the most terrifying thing I'd ever done
    at that time...again, that's a long story, but I will say it was in a state hospital, run by an "Addictionologist" {Board cert.} and I did gain some useful info/support there, came home and stayed "sober" off the Vics
    for about 5-6 years.

    I see the ads on TV...especially "Passages" and find myself laughing because it looks like more of a spa treatment for the rich and wealthy and believe me...there were no spa treatments, poolside lounging, etc
    where I went! And the other TV ad for "The Addiction Network" with the dude all dressed up like a fake DR...that's another I find myself LMAO at!... "You're cured".... Such a bunch of BS!!

    Now, I have nothing against rehab, but personally will never step foot in one again! If someone IS considering going however, do your research...and then do it again...if it looks sketchy and too good to be
    true, then it probably is! I would consider a support group, online or in person as they are FREE, you can take what you need and leave the rest and walk out if you see BS going on!
    OK...sorry so long...wishing all who are struggling the best and to remember to take care of YOU first! *
    Helpful Bawston, rainey51 Rated helpful
    Likes File Error 500, ludwig1961 liked this post
    ~*I Think it is lost.....but nothing is ever lost nor can be lost.
    The body sluggish, aged, cold, the ember left from earlier fires
    shall duly flame again.* ~ WW

  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by File Error 500 View Post
    John Oliver segment was really good! Too bad he didn’t consider rehab in the hospital.

    As I said a few posts above this, I have had experience with the detox in the hospital to get over benzodiazepines. I know that I have posted this story before, but it is beneficial for me to post it here.

    Several years ago I went to detox in the hospital in the NYC area, a private Catholic one. I spent 11 days there to reduce the benzodiazepines in my system. I did get PAWS as a result.

    The drug counselor had one thing in mind, to sign me up for rehab. I said “no” as I walked out I heard him on the phone saying that “*** doesn’t want rehab”. Then I was nothing but blip on his radar. He made an appointment for me me to see an outside rehab counselor but didn’t even say anything about it. I had to ask another drug counselor to help. I saw my drug counselor at a grocery store a few months ago, I was mad.

    The reason I didn’t go to rehab was their rehab wasn’t very good. It was horrible. They offered the 12 Step program but hadn’t had posters or brochures for you to take. The posters they did have were for NA but AA, although there were several detoxing from alcohol in the hospital. They had some thing that was related to the 12 step program. They had each 12 step on a sheet of paper and had the patients fill it out to go over and write how they related to the step in their life. But, there weren’t any meetings for this AND someone said to me “did you notice that each step is the same.”

    Nonetheless, I organized the stand they were on because I had nothing else to do. I was bored for hours at a time. I cleaned up the kitchen which had TONS of old patients colored paper and pens in a craft session which they don’t have anymore. The kitchen was the only room for people to sit. They did not have a community room. They had a TV in the kitchen but it was monitored. Breaking Bad was rebroadcast at the time and the patients loved watching it, but we only got to see it piecemeal. All they had for the patients was to go to 12 Step meetings and eat.

    There food was abysmal. I must have lost a few pounds while I was on there. We didn’t have the luxury of picking our menu as they do for other hospital patients. That was done for us. I have problems with meat if I don’t know where it came from. Including restaurants. You could tell the kitchen you were vegetarian but they ignored you. So every meal was beef stroganoff, chicken marsala and tilapia dressed it who knows what. There breakfast was processed eggs. The only thing The only thing I could eat was cereal. The soup was water. So I starved.

    They didn’t have a refrigerator full of snacks for us to grab. It was empty. When you are coming off drugs and alcohol it is imperative that you eat and eat healthy. Some days they had canisters full of saltine, graham crackers, Oreos, Lorne Dunn shortbread cookies, peanut butter and jelly, but that were gone by the end of the day. Patients were hungry. The kitchen was supposed to bring up daily cheese and bread for us to make sandwiches. Either they forgot or someone was stealing it.

    We did have snacks that were provided to us on the outside of the hospital as there were caring people on the outside like nuns. But I don’t think that chocolate chip cookies and Hershey bars are good for you in the first place. I never eat them at home. To think that you would give drug and alcohol addicts sugar which they crave is a good thing, I disagree with you.

    There was one drug counselor who was a bitch. Several patients hated her. She complained that I didn’t go to a 12 Step AA meeting to other people. She didn’t understand that I had a migraine, I am not there for alcohol and as part of the detox program attendance in the 12 Step meetings were not required. It was just one meeting that I missed, I went to meetings though I didn’t have to. I had nothing else to do.

    When it was time to release me, they let someone go ahead of me. They had a list from NYS pharmacy of the prescription which I get. They crossed off all of them, including non-controlled scripts. They gave me a list of meetings in the area. The thing is, with AA they hate NA. So I would not go to an AA meeting. As far as NA, where I live it is full of heroin addicts who would jump me considering that I am middle aged, white woman who dresses well. So I would not go to a NA meeting either.

    That was my experience in a Catholic hospital for alcohol and drug addiction. I would recommend it to anyone to go there. Would you?
    Good Lord, I can relate! Sounds so much like my own experience with the sugar cookies, meetings from 6am until "bedtime"....yeah, I'm sicker than shit but I'll get my ass up and attend your 6am meeting, LOL!
    I asked why so many freaking meetings and their reply was that it was only a 4-day rehab and they had to pack as much info into people as they could.....I said F' that which is one of the reasons I almost got
    kicked out.
    No TV, but we did have a "smoke room" located inside the hospital (sure they don't offer that nowdays) but it was "monitored" and they listened in on everything being said and done in that room! *For safety I
    guess which was fine by me at the time.*
    Likes File Error 500, tommygun, rainey51 liked this post
    ~*I Think it is lost.....but nothing is ever lost nor can be lost.
    The body sluggish, aged, cold, the ember left from earlier fires
    shall duly flame again.* ~ WW

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