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Thread: Opioids for Depression: poppy tea, buprenorphine, methadone, and now trying tianeptine

  1. #1

    Default Opioids for Depression: poppy tea, buprenorphine, methadone, and now trying tianeptine

    When my mood and energy levels are low I discovered 20 years ago that the only class of drugs which allowed me to be happy and healthy have mu-opioid activity. This runs against the brainwashing machine, but i've found scientific articles from the 1970s on methadone maintenance which say that for doses of up to about 40 mg a day it can be a very effective treatment for both anxiety and depression. But that knowledge is largely suppressed for the masses.

    I had several years on MMT and it was a wonderful thing for me but the clinic went downhill after they started taking Medicaid patients and getting overrun by people getting their medicine for free while I was paying $250/month out of pocket. And there was some other bad management and bad employees which led to me losing my bi-weekly takehome privileges and going back to 6 days a week observed dosing at what become a real zoo since enrollment and earning takehomes every 90-days with clean UAs and perfect behavior. I was using methadone as my antidepressant and it worked very well, giving a full three years where it seemed the dark heavy lethargy was no longer a daily reality and instead a memory from the distant past.

    But now the buprenorphine no longer gives me a feeling of energy, and ditto for kratom. So I became interested in tianeptine sodium (Stablon) because it's a tricyclic with sufficient mu-opioid activity that its abuse by IV injection is quite common in Russia and Europe where they're injecting the tablets, and its sale was banned this year in Michigan. All because of opioid-like effects. And my very first antidepressant scrip was for Elavil, a tricyclic with many more side effects than tianeptine, and the Elavil really did elevate my mood, unlike the garbage SSRI/SNRI, etc. being poured into the gullible masses who believe whatever they see on TV.

    My 10-gram quantity was mailed today from the US and it's too far to get it Saturday but it should be here by Monday and i'll be dissolving it in water to measure doses volumetrically. The standard dose is 12.5 mg thrice a day. And people report feeling energized immediately after their very first dose of the sodium salt where a water solution would be absorbed fatser than a tablet. If i get no relief from tianeptine then i may have to go back on methadone.

    P.S. In browsing around here I found thread about being prescribed ketamine nasal spray for depression, 20-mg dose from a 0.1-ml squirt by a compounding pharmacy, which would be the same as 2000 mg dissolved in 10 ml of water, four times the strength of a 500 mg bottle of 10 ml. that was easy. 12.5 mg in my arm with an insulin needle and i'm typing. a very slight lift in mood and a little bit of energy. i could drive a car, but there's no real need and the grocery shopping can wait till tomorrow.
    Last edited by Trampy; 07-05-2019 at 05:33 PM.
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  3. It's interesting to read about someone else who has had years of MMT, then bupe, and realizes that much of the time the battle has been with depression and anxiety. I agree that the crap they are peddling now is just that. The older meds served a function and were quite effective, but most insurance companies won't pay for the older meds any longer. With bupe, unfortunately, along with the lift comes the desire and tendency to use more to get more affect, creating an unnecessary tolerance. This is likely the reason bupe no longer helps. If you keep your dose and tolerance low - < 1mg three times a day, you might see better results. I am actually able to use bupe in that way, and know that I must cut back when tolerance starts to build.

    I understand that the intent of allowing ketamine to be administered is to give physicians the tools for those who are inpatient and not responsive to other therapies. This can have a significant impact on someone who is suffering.

    Tianeptine sodium may very well help since it is both tricyclic and binds to mu. You might find tolerance to be an issue with tianeptine as well, however. It is for this reason that may find Tramadol helpful. Personally, I can't stand it.

    Best of luck with your new therapy. I'd be really interested in reading how well this serves you over time.

    PR
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  4. #3
    Thanks. Yeah i didn't mention tramadol in my post, because it never gave me that lift. There's an enzyme that varies genetically and that's where we get the M1 metabolite with its supposed strong mu activity. Debrisoquine comes to mind. It might be the same CYP enzyme converting codeine to morphine, or maybe the opposing enzyme. All i know is that tramadol does nothing for me. And codeine doesn't do much either. Variations in metabolizing enzymes could explain some people get strong AD effects from tramadol and in US it's no longer very strange to see tramadol scripted for depression. Oh i was hopeful alright, having a jar of 40 grams of USP powder anticipating i'd run short of 50-mg tabs.

    Yes, many people dose escalate and get diminishing or disappearing returns but you don't my buprenorphine history, which goes back to paying $2/tab for 0.2-mg Temgesic, with Suboxone and Subutex just twinkles in Reckitt's planning. Sooner or later every partial or mixed mu-opioid will "poop out" and that could be a temporary thing or it might mean over for good. I've used many other opiates, but the strongest energizing effects for my lethargic non-melancholic depression has so far been methadone. The kratom and the buprenorphine were just pale imitations. But i'm hopeful for tianeptine becase i had such a strong response to the Elavil that i saved up 30 pills to take an overdose at age 16, because the pills were making me happy but i was still miserable. It sounded real good to read about its effects on NMDA and "neuroplasticity" in face of stress (albeit in rat brains). Maybe the opiates are just masking my stress response.

    In the meantime i'm still feeling a definite lift after taking a single 12.5 mg dose of ketamine ~2 hours ago with months gone by having not touched it. Yes, it's a potential Reset Button to get out of a slump.
    Last edited by Trampy; 07-05-2019 at 07:28 PM.
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    you used opiods for years without any addiction or needing larger doses? that seems very rare. I think you will do better with tianaptine if it helps because its not so addictive and its easier to get.

    ketamine will knock out the depression but its not for every day use. You will find that out soon enough. Regular use leads to less and less depression relief and a desire for the ket high. I have some but save it for rare occasions. Likewise I have opiates i was prescribed and did not need all of, so i save them for when i need them. they did give me a nice lift, top of the world feeling but i know there is a price to pay so i used them sparingly.

    With ket i recommend using it only once in a while no more than once a month.

  6. #5
    Yeah, thass so. The only time i got messed up on opiates was when nationpharmacy.com started up, it was a domestic Texas-based OP with all the major C-3 and C-4s, which included all the hydro/apap, and a Zen shopping cart experience. We called it an NROP for no recordsonline pharmacy and there were quite a few of them where you answer some questions on a web form; the ROPs required that you send them medical records and there were some that you had to talk to the doctor, one of whom got 2 years. They'd take V/MC and it would be delivered by FedEx or USPS. And then Dan Gebbia in Pennsylvania as email source shipping sealed bottles by Express Mail. He got 43 months I believe. Bottles of hydro/apap delivered every week. Big busts for both of them in the newspapers. It was crazy and drugbuyers.com with Alex in Costa Rica was where we found out what was going on and i practically lived there. So yeah, back then I overdid it and gave myself osteomyelitis from IVing the hydro/apap with very primitive or sometimes nonexistent filtration. So in my list of opiates i left out hydrocodone and oxycodone, which I ended up abusing and tapered down to zero on my own and then enrolling on Suboxone and then methadone at a methadone clinic so it was easy to make that transition. And then there was almost 10 years of living in the purgatory of Suboxone before i said to hell with it and enrolled in MMT. They did a drug screen on intake and it was negative for opiates because i'd started on methadone on my own. So yeah, it's unusual and my motto has always been if it doesn't kill me it makes me stronger. I have relatively modest quantities of several C-2 and C-3 opiates for which I have absolutely no temptation to use without a medical reason ... for years now and they're still there.
    Last edited by Trampy; 07-05-2019 at 10:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gullible View Post
    you used opiods for years without any addiction or needing larger doses? that seems very rare.
    While it's true that some folks who become addicted to opiates choose to take more and more, I still believe that's not a complete "given." I've taken opiates for a body condition involving tension and "ticcing" and have taken the same dose for about 40 years now, with a few breaks in between.

    Because some folks crash their lives behind substances in horrific ways, it doesn't mean everyone does or will and that's the piece that grinds my gut the most. It's no different than anything else - some folks are just self destructive/push the envelope, but this notion that no one can take opiates for extended periods without always "escalating" I believe is an unfair portrait. Years ago when the UK was allowing people to actually have heroin "safely," they worried that folks would want more and more, but instead discovered that most users found a dose that "worked," and stayed there. I believe if we let the majority of people choosing to use this drug, better access, that that same phenomenon would happen regularly. I also believe that opioids have more uses than just for pain alone and again, the addiction fear is causing us to ignore those possible therapies. JMHO...
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  8. #7
    A good night's sleep is probably the simplest thing to keep the dark lethargy at bay.The word depression encompasses so many different things that it's meaningless as a diagnostic entity because all it really amounts to is when a classic conformist happy happy person asks me how i am as part of a greeting ritual i'm almost never going to tell a stranger that i'm fine. But last night i took some diazepam just 2 mg or so. I have a theory that when i sleep well, my body releases growth hormone and that's the reason i woke up feeling so good this morning. And the other reason was posting here after being away doing other things besides finding sources for drugs.

    It makes sense to me that people vary in their disposition. Some seem always happy while others would not be described that way. The ancient Greek Hippocrates talked about a type of person possessed of melancholy humours, and the remedy for those patients would be a decoction of the opium poppy plant. It's only 100 years since the Harrison Narcotics Act was passed in the US making it illegal for doctors to prescribe opiates "solely for the comfort of the patient." If a person is miserable the doctors have their hands tied and some of them go to prison for their opiate prescriptions, like the doctors busted in the early 00s mentioned above.

    One of the things you have when you're on MMT is sit in line and wait, so there's plenty of opportunities for an intelligent person to strike up a conversation with the fellow patients. Clinic rules can vary on how high a person can raise their dose without hassles. But very few opt to get the highest possible dose and some of them really needed it, based on talking to them. None of them were taking the toxic antidepressants SSRIs and SNRIs despite the fact that these are the most down and out miserable people i've ever talked to on a daily basis. These are the rejects of our society and some of them are in terrible physical pain but they're deemed ineligible for pain management so their only possible medical treatment is MMT. It's the bottom of the barrel but then again there's all kinds of folks, some of them with stable jobs and family life.

    If i went back on methadone i don't need to go through the rigamarole of 6 days a week observed dosing, random UAs, and in my case paying at least $250/month out of pocket. If a person knows how the clinic system operates, they can hang out at certain times of day and find someone who needs some cash and hopefully they've raised their dose high enough that they could go without, or make do with less. The going rate last year was 20 cents a milligram, or $20 for a 100-mg bottle. If say a person picks up on Thursday or Friday and they're carrying a metal box then you know they're carrying 2, 3, or maybe 4 takehome bottles, and giving up one of them can be doable because they'll dilute what they have left and make it through the weekend, and if their dose is high enough it might even be a desirable thing to not be as sedated for a few days. I know based on my experience tapering down from 100 mg to zero, and also making use of some very precious 10-mg tablets from a pharmacy, all i'd need is just 10 mg a day so it wouldn't be worth all the hassles to enroll in a clinic where they'd start me out at 30 mg a day and let me go up 10 mg every other day from there.
    Last edited by Trampy; 07-06-2019 at 12:31 PM.
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  9. #8
    Doctors work in the disease industry. They make money from people's poor health. If you feel lousy and are sleepy all the time do you think a doctor would ask you to describe your sleep? Heck no. They don't ask you don't ask you anything about your sleep or diet or digestion because that's considered blaming the victim. If you're tired all the time, first look at sleep, then diet, and for overall vitality you need to have a well-functioning digestive system to get the nutrition from your food and to avoid being full of crap. So that's number 1 priority if you're tired all the time. If you think a doctor can solve all your problems for you, go look for a shaman or witch doctor, not a licensed medical doctor.

    And if you're feeling miserable and think that this thread is a good justification for you to self-medicate with opiates, well good luck.
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  10. #9
    Stress and grief and sudden hot weather and a shortage of social supports. And that's usually how it goes. In the olden days a doctor would diagnosis it as nervous exhaustion and advise a rest cure. So when you're tired all the time, you need to rest and take it easy. But nowadays hardly anyone would be capable of figuring that out. But I've never been one to trust doctors, ever since being 16 and prescribed Elavil after ruling out metabolic, hormonal, or infection causes, and telling me "there's nothing wrong with you; you're depressed." And by gosh and by golly if a patient responded to Elavil by feeling on top of the world, as happened just as soon as the all-day sleeping stopped, that was considered a diagnostic confirmation. Or maybe it was the three days of sleep that cured me and made my hypomanic. Anyway, i'm just using this as an opportunity to give you a better picture of my situation and history while I wait for the mail to arrive. For the last three nights i've been taking a 10-mg tablet of methadone around 5-6 PM before dinner and it's a very strong stimulant keeping me awake last night till 2 AM. So i'm not kidding when i say methadone is an antidepressant. And it's a damn shame that all those people on Medicaid who lie about their financial situation to be eligible get it for free and get free rides to the clinic, while Medicare doesn't cover it and I can't afford the $3 K/year cost, and don't need 30 mg a day because the 10 mg was plenty, maybe 5 mg a day would have been enough.

    It just felt so nice to feel methadone again, even just 10 mg was plenty. The closest equivalent in my experience was the old 15-mg Dexedrine Spansule with all the colored beads.

    P.S. Me bad. I forgot that i was drinking guarana Spider Energy Drink last night, 2 cans in fact. and was up till 3 AM but even so i didn't feel wiped out with fatigue this afternoon, some of these recent days i've laiddown on the couch and immediately fell asleep i was so tired, and some days i'd take 2 or even 3 "naps" during the day the lethargy was so bad.

    P.P.S. Tada! 10 grams white powder tianeptine sodium dissolved in regular distilled water in a 750-ml clear glass bottle makes it 13.3 mg/ml. Tianeptine they say is very hygroscopic and can turn into a rock, and it's also unstable from UV light, so that glass bottle is in the refrigerator and i took ~20 mg without any other drugs in my system, no kratom since the morning and no methadone since yesterday.

    I feel energized. And the longtime feelings of pain in my chest, something like fibromyalgia, that subtle pressure and pain in my chest seems to be comforted. I'm glad to have gotten the sodium form. It took 10 minutes for all the powder to dissolve, the sulfate is insoluble in water. And the taste is bearable, while people say the sulfate tastes terrible, and you'd need propylene glycol or ethanol for it.

    Wow. The worst of my funk was already over by the time this medicine arrived but i'm just pleased as punch that it seems to be just what i need to help me deal with something like chronic fatigue syndrome or nervous collapse whenever the stress overcomes my ability to deal. 10 grams was $106 from Tianeptine Store, Las Vegas, NV.

    Seems like the 10 grams in 750 ml water is about the maximum. Squirting 1.5 ml into an empty glass becomes milky with white precipitate. And it's no placebo effect. This is mildly energizing and also a definite analgesic that combines well with guarana energy drinks.

    For anyone using buprenorphine or tramadol or kratom for depression this could be useful and another thing about the mu activity is there's plenty of mentions of tianeptine causing constipation, and it's not because of its cholinergic effects.
    Last edited by Trampy; 07-09-2019 at 02:05 PM.
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  11. short update. yes, it's still good. i measure it with a syringe squirting 1 ml (~13 mg) into a glass cup and watch it turn milky and then add some ginger ale to make it palatable. i'll take 20 mg first thing in the morning and then usually add on 13 mg whenever it wears off, like every 4-6 hours, probably 65 to 80 mg a day.

    i'm no longer so fatigued that i'm falling asleep sitting in a chair or as soon as i lie down on couch to read, falling asleep with a book in my hands. it's a very subtle effect and there seems no downside to it. it feels natural in the sense that it seems like it's somehow triggering my body to make the energy flow. it seems to be a remedy for my chi exhaustion.

    while methadone has a definite euphoria to it, and the temptation to escalate the dose and frequency, the tianeptine at first made me almost manic in combination with two cans of guarana energy drink, and that was on top of 10 mg methadone. after that first "honeymoon" night and over 48 hours later it's more like taking my vitamins rather than getting high.

    if you're using an opiate or opioid to help deal with low mood or low energy and don't live in the state of Michigan or France or any other place where it's scheduled, it's definitely cheaper than getting buprenorphine or kratom or tramadol. if 10 grams powder costs $106 and it yields 750 13.3-mg doses, and you take five 1-ml squirts a day for 66.5 mg, then that 750-ml bottle would last 150 days, costing $0.71 per day for the tianeptine.
    Last edited by Trampy; 07-11-2019 at 01:51 AM. Reason: obsessiveness
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  12. #11
    I've had a quick read through your posts @Trampy and find it interesting. I've been taking Tramadol for a few years now in the hopes of getting out of my seemingly never ending, I couldn't give a fug frump. It's got to the point where I'm barely functioning, unable to do the everyday stuff that constitutes a life. Plus, I drink way too much as a means of consolation? Ignoring what's going on? I'll have another read through and investigate. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trampy View Post
    Doctors work in the disease industry. They make money from people's poor health. If you feel lousy and are sleepy all the time do you think a doctor would ask you to describe your sleep? Heck no. They don't ask you don't ask you anything about your sleep or diet or digestion because that's considered blaming the victim. If you're tired all the time, first look at sleep, then diet, and for overall vitality you need to have a well-functioning digestive system to get the nutrition from your food and to avoid being full of crap. So that's number 1 priority if you're tired all the time. If you think a doctor can solve all your problems for you, go look for a shaman or witch doctor, not a licensed medical doctor.

    And if you're feeling miserable and think that this thread is a good justification for you to self-medicate with opiates, well good luck.
    The doctors in the US are very different to the ones in the UK. The Docs in the us are just thinking about the money. I had a X ray, which I didn't use and some other things that were not needed, the bills were in thier thousands all I had was a sprained ankle and just needed rest. I don,t pay any medical bills the company I work for does. I was shocked by the US health care system. The US should be ashamed of their system. They are a rich nation and they don't have socialized medical system. In the UK, doc are payed a set pay, so if I went to a UK hospital they would have a sprained ankle and tell me to get some rest. NO X rays, NO other test. They have no incentive to give people tests.

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    I gotta say, the first few weeks of being prescribed Suboxone really lifted me and gave me an energetic buzz (not a high) that definitely lifted any sort of depression. After that wore off I haven't felt it since.

    I wonder if that sort of energy is as short lived on methadone :/
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  15. #14
    @4renzicz If you felt a strong mood lift from Suboxone that went away after a few weeks maybe you're taking too much. Two 8/2 tabs a day is way way to much. I break a Suboxone 8/2 tablet into crumbs and powder and it last me about four days. Also. There's a huge difference between Subutex and Suboxone because the naloxone is absorbed and it suppresses your natural endogenous opioids. Doctors will ignore that and tell it it's not absorbed sublingual.
    @trish5959 Taking tramadol to raise your mood is only good if it's giving you a benefit, which it sounds like you're not, and maybe have developed a dependency so you''re paying a price and getting no clear benefit. And drinking alcohol is about the worst way to deal with pain. Most people are so brainwashed they wouldn't even consider methadone. The only way to know if it's good for you is to either get some yourself somehow and see how it makes you feel, or just going to a clinic and enrolling. Methadone sure worked for me, for 33 months it was really good. See /methadone at Reddit.
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    @Trampy I started on 8mg/2mg film and within the first month I was on 3 x 8mg/2mg films (24mg daily) and was steady and fully managed on that. Over the last 6 months I cut down to 2mg daily and the last 3 months I swapped to subutex (since they can be prescribed in 0.4mg increments).

    I felt like the naloxone was doing something because when I swapped to subutex, I felt less down/lethargic.

    24mg suboxone seems like a lot now that I'm only on 0.8mg subutex - my biggest concern is what impact it's all had on the various receptors in my brain..
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  17. #16
    Be very glad you were able to switch to Subutex and taking a low dose. You're worrying about imaginary receptors. There's only you, the drug, and how it's affecting you. Maybe you're suffering from unwarranted anxiety thinking about mythical hypothetical receptors. It's just a conceptual model they use as part of the advertising campaigns.
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    @Trampy Just so I'm not mistaken, are you suggesting that the opioid receptors are imaginary?
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  19. #18
    Yes, it's a conceptual model. Receptor theory is theoretical. You're worrying about harm to an imaginary internal scarecrow. That worry drives people to the disease-industry providers and their toxic pharmaceuticals. The sicker they make people the larger their profits. This receptor theory really took hold in the early 1980s with the very successful marketing of the very harmful Prozac.

    The TV commercials had diagrams of little gremlins in a person's brain. It's all baloney but it made Prozac a billion-dollar drug.

    People are generally brainwashed into confusing models with reality. An older example is the model of the atom and the atomic particles. Nobody could ever see an atom because it's a theoretical construct, as are the protons, neutrons, electrons. The model matches the theory. If the mathematics used to model the atom changes, the model would have to be changed accordingly.
    Last edited by Trampy; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:24 PM.
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  20. #19
    There is no good quick fix for chronic low mood and low energy. There seems to be little or no interest in the body's own creation of the endogenous opioids, but i think that's where the problem lies.

    If you're happy and active and have healthy relationships then your body automatically makes those happiness chemicals. But anything you take to artificially raise your level of happiness, whether methadone, buprenorphine, kratom, tramadol, or heroin ... daily use of those will suppress your own natural opioid production because there are feedback loops to for example keep a person from staying manic for too long. Too much excitation is always followed by exhaustion, fatigue, or depression.

    The best way to be happy and healthy is to not rely on ANY daily drugs, whether it's opium from poppies you grow yourself or the latest SNRI or TCA poisons shown to be slightly more effective than placebo for people who feel "crummy."

    The drugs can be used to get you out of a slump, but daily use for long periods can leave you feeling worse than you were at the beginning.

    I had my Suboxone PCP close his clinic in 2014 and then went on 33 months of MMT and then took a year to taper down to zero. When i started methadone i was a total recluse with no friends and no family who would talk to me and certainly nobody to talk to because i'm just way too weird and our society is becoming more brainwashed every day while i'm going in the opposite direction.

    I have #78 of the Suboxone 8/2 tablets that I grind or crush and one tablet lasts me around 4 days. I get a lift when i take some small amount of Suboxone. I couldget a Subutex scrip by seeing a doctor at a methadone clinic but even then there's a risk they'd turn me down and offer only Suboxone. Insurance doesn't cover either the doctor or the scrip, so it would be like $100 to get a 14-day scrip for #28 Subutex 8 mg and then paying cash at a pharmacy, maybe $30 or $50 for the Subutex tabs. It costs.

    My kratom is running low. Last year i bought a whole bunch of it and mixtures of boosted powders with alkaloid extracts. Spent around $700 on all that kratom 6 months ago and it's running out and i don't think it's had an effect on me to justify buying more of it so when it runs out i'll stop taking the kratom.

    And then i have a jar with 40 grams of tramadol powder because i'm down to about 50 tablets of the 50 mg. There again it doesn't seem worth the effort to buy it from Thailand again.

    And then there's methadone. People who enter a methadone clinic carrying a metal box will be leaving carrying one or more bottles of their takehome doses for dosing at home. Some of these people were trading those bottles for cash at the rate of 20 cents per mg. When I was on MMT and getting 13 bottles every two weeks i'd sell some of them to a person who had my phone number and would come over to my house to do the exchange. If you're lucky one morning spent there could lead you to meeting such a person and then it's no longer necessary to be slumming there with the sleaze.

    I think the biggest cause of this type of lethargy is loneliness. We need social connections with others because we're designed as social creatures or insects sometimes.

    I know that i was feeling pretty good until around Memorial day when a most favored beloved cat died at the hands of an incompetent and negligent veterinarian. I just collapsed with anger and grief and have been in a slump all summer.
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  21. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
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    Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    601
    jakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to beholdjakemoe is a splendid one to behold

    @Trampy, its just not true that most people might be fine if they depended upon their own core of strength in order to heal. When it comes to depression there are real cases of chemical shortages in peoples brains that cause the depression. The meds are not just used to get you out of slumps. I'm not sure if you believe we don't need drugs for any length of time but some of us do. When you find yourself in a black mood for no reason, something is lacking in your makeup and chemicals can truly make a difference in your life. It's fine and great for you to stop taking some of the drugs you were in the past, but please don't believe your solutions apply to most people.
    Likes jaders, ludwig1961, 4renzicz liked this post
    F**k the DEA

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