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Thread: We now accept Bitcoin donations to help sustain the forum

  1. #21
    Insofar as PR is one of the last online refuges for intelligent discussion among and civil-minded people -a forum which is beyond the depravity, greed, hatred and corruption that characterizes so much of the internet these days - I think it's a good idea...

    Heck, maybe even one day, assuming we could achieve 1/100th the degree of disproportionate representation a lobbying group like the NRA has, PR could actually influence policy making and there wouldn't be a need to keep donations 'secret' anymore...

    Hmmm...maybe I'm thinking too far ahead, for now I better just work on adding some funds to my BTC wallet(s) so I can donate.
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  2. #22
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    I think using this medium to raise funds to support the site is a great idea. Yet I am somewhat in the remedial room when it comes to working BTC and got ripped off before, but maybe things have changed and stuff has finally been worked out. I guess we shall see. Just wish i knew how to work it and complete a transaction without issues, which i can't yet..
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  3. #23
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    First of all, I want to say that I'm happy PR has made it possible to donate to the site. That said, I've discovered something about the donation process that may or may not be troubleing. In short, the exchange rate used for Bitcoin donation transactions appears to be several percent lower than the current market price for Bitcoin. The end result is that a $20 donation (currently) costs the donor ~$21.50. That's a small, but significant difference.

    As an experiment, I set up a $20 donation and noted that the donation page asked me to send 0.00219768 BTC. That means that the donation processor (NOT PR!) is using an exchange rate of $9100.51/BTC ($20 / 0.00219768 BTC = $9100.51/BTC). I then looked up the current market price for Bitcoin on several markets. All were within pennies of each other at ~$9771.50/BTC. What this means is that the processor can take money at a lower rate, convert it to US dollars at a higher rate, pass the $20 to PR, and keep the difference. This represents a little over 7% markup from the donated amount, rather larger than the 1% @Admin mentioned up thread. In fact, I suspect (without evidence ... my suspicious nature) that the processor is taking the 1% @Admin mentioned out of the $20 in addition to the ~7% they get by undervaluing the Bitcoins donationed.

    I'm not posting this to criticize PR or @Admin, who I suspect may be unaware of what appears to be price manipulation by the donation processor. But, I do hope @Admin can comment on what I've found.

    I did not do a comparison for Litecoin, and do not know if what I've found about Bitcoin also applies to that crypto-currency.
    Helpful jaders, Admin, heliarc Rated helpful

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by dtek View Post
    What this means is that the processor can take money at a lower rate, convert it to US dollars at a higher rate, pass the $20 to PR, and keep the difference. This represents a little over 7% markup from the donated amount, rather larger than the 1% @Admin mentioned up thread. In fact, I suspect (without evidence ... my suspicious nature) that the processor is taking the 1% @Admin mentioned out of the $20 in addition to the ~7% they get by undervaluing the Bitcoins donationed.
    They take the 1% in BTC so I'm not sure it's not a scam by the payment processor, I need to investigate this further, I will update the thread. To anyone who donated so far please accept my apologies that you might have donated a few percent more than the dollar price stated. In dollar terms this would have been maximum $1.50 extra on a $20 donation, as Dtek wrote.

    Thank you @dtek for the donation and for this very important heads up!
    Last edited by Admin; 2 Weeks Ago at 08:18 PM. Reason: I made a mistake about the source of the price data, so removed that paragraph.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Admin View Post
    They take the 1% in BTC so I'm not sure it's not a scam by the payment processor, I need to investigate this further, I will update the thread. To anyone who donated so far please accept my apologies that you might have donated a few percent more than the dollar price stated. In dollar terms this would have been maximum $1.50 extra on a $20 donation, as Dtek wrote.

    Thank you @dtek for the donation and for this very important heads up!
    Thanks for looking into this. My entire goal in speaking up was to insure that PR gets the maximum possible fraction of the funds that members donate. Sadly, the crypto-currency world has more than its fair share of shady characters who will rip off unsuspecting customers whenever they are able to. I hope you can get it figured out quickly.

    Also, after thinking about this a bit, I have another question. You mentioned up-thread that members don't receive credit for their donations if they don't send the exact Bitcoin amount specified by the donation page. So the question is, does PR receive the funds when the amount donated does not match the amount the donation page tells the user to send? Or, asked another way, are the donation Bitcoin addresses assigned by the processor to PR and only to PR?
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by dtek View Post
    Thanks for looking into this. My entire goal in speaking up was to insure that PR gets the maximum possible fraction of the funds that members donate. Sadly, the crypto-currency world has more than its fair share of shady characters who will rip off unsuspecting customers whenever they are able to. I hope you can get it figured out quickly.
    After investigating this it seems that the the random amount the payment processor adds on to the end of the payment is more than I realized. Also the prices are only updated once every 30 minutes which, at times of volatility in Bitcoin's price might make a difference. To compensate for this we have reduced the quoted BTC amount by approximately 5% (slightly more than 5% for small amounts like $5, slightly less for larger amounts). This way even if the quoted exchange rate and the small extra amount added to identify the payments make the Bitcoin or Litecoin amount too high, the 5% reduction should offset it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dtek View Post
    Also, after thinking about this a bit, I have another question. You mentioned up-thread that members don't receive credit for their donations if they don't send the exact Bitcoin amount specified by the donation page. So the question is, does PR receive the funds when the amount donated does not match the amount the donation page tells the user to send? Or, asked another way, are the donation Bitcoin addresses assigned by the processor to PR and only to PR?
    Yes PR receives the funds even when the amount of Bitcoin or Litecoin is not recognized.
    Last edited by Admin; 2 Weeks Ago at 08:08 AM. Reason: Rephrased the reasons for why the price might be inaccurate.
    Helpful jaders, heliarc Rated helpful

  7. #27
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    I need to learn how to use Bitcoin as I've not even tried to understand how it works properly but I will so I can donate towards this forum which I am very grateful to be a part of.
    If it wasn't for this friendly forum I'd still be an extremely anxious mess of a man! Finding this place has helped me so much that these days I'm feeling much better with the meds I need to function like a normal person. You guys rock!!
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  8. There have been cautions against using coin base. Is there another place where one can buy bitcoin without having to produce a picture id? How does the buying even happen? Do I have to transfer funds from my identifiable bank account to a bitcoin exchange? I would like to donate because this place has been invauable me, but it all seems so incomprehensible.

    Also is litecoin safer/more anonymous? Why use one type of coin over the other?

    I would love to see an “explain it like I’m 5” tutorial on all this, kind of like:

    Step 1: go to this website
    Step 2 download this app
    Step 3 configure your account like this
    Step 4 don’t ever do this

    Granted though, it would be a lot of work for someone. But if such a thing exists, probably lots of us would love to see it.

    Random thought: As I have been helping my elderly parents adapt to the world of cell phones, texts, emails, and see how they have struggled with basic concepts, I’ve often wondered what new thing would be the conceptual barrier I just could not cross. And wondering now if cryptocurrency is it.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gullible View Post
    May I suggest paxful.com as another place to get bitcoin?
    I just took a look at Paxful (I've never used them before) and have one caution for people who are thinking about using it as a source of Bitcoin to donate. Paxful's FAQ says they charge "a flat wallet send out fee of 0.0005 BTC for every send out from the wallet to an external Bitcoin address." That doesn't sound like much, but at current Bitcoin exchange rates it's about five dollars. That's five dollars to send the Bitcoin you just purchased from the Paxful server to your own wallet or to PR.

    If you're investing and moving large sums of Bitcoin, a five dollar fee to get your Bitcoin into your own wallet is ... I was going to say "not unreasonable," but I think it is unreasonable. Regardless, when buying a small amount of Bitcoin to donate to PR, a five dollar fee seems exorbitant.

    I know people are going to ask what I recommend, but my method won't work for most of you (anyone outside of and not near the State of Washington). For those of you within striking distance of a weed shop in Washington, call and ask if they have a POSaBit terminal and if they'll let you use it to simply buy Bitcoin (as opposed to buying Bitcoin only to use to purchase the store's products). The exchange rate is excellent (or was, last time I checked). You'll receive a slip with a Bitcoin address on it and that address will contain the coin you just purchased.
    Last edited by dtek; 6 Days Ago at 04:14 PM.
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  10. #30
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    Thats nice for those who live next to that shop. As for the $5 fee, I haven't traded on pax in a long time but it sounds like a miners fee. I have paid more than $5 at times when there was a lot of traffic.

    Besides that they do allow trades in person so you could arrange to meet someone and dodge most of the fees. LBC no longer allows that so I mentioned pax. A bitcoin atm will charge you a fee too, perhaps 5% perhaps 20.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gullible View Post
    As for the $5 fee, I haven't traded on pax in a long time but it sounds like a miners fee. I have paid more than $5 at times when there was a lot of traffic.
    It is definitely not the miner's fee. Miner fees are never a flat rate. Those fees are quoted in satoshis per byte. Without going into the details, the miner's fee will be larger for larger transactions and larger to make transactions go quicker. Current transaction (miner) fees are ~$0.35 for next block confirmation (within ~10 minutes), ~$0.30 for confirmation within three blocks (about half an hour) and ~$0.06 for confirmation within six blocks (about an hour). Five dollars per transaction regardless of transaction size is a very sizable profit for Paxful when their customers move Bitcoin out of their Paxful wallet.
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  12. #32
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    OK thats true although lbc also charges a flat fee. I think they just round it up so as to make a little profit when its cheap and cover costs when its more expensive.

    "Current transaction (miner) fees are ~$0.35 for next block confirmation (within ~10 minutes), ~$0.30 for confirmation within three blocks (about half an hour) and ~$0.06 for confirmation within six blocks (about an hour)"

    Sometimes that is true but those are probably the lowest fees I've seen at least in recent years. Mornings it seems to be higher, it may be $10 for premium speed and people pay it. By bundling outgoing transactions the exchanges are able to save money. Best time for a low fee is usually in the evening in usa. Weekends might be good too
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  13. #33
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    So I definitely need to learn how to do Bitcoin. I'll have to do some reading up on the threads here. I know more than a couple people have given excellent advise/tips.

    Also will be good to know how to use BC in case more vendors start only accepting this form of payment.....
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gullible View Post
    "Current transaction (miner) fees are ~$0.35 for next block confirmation (within ~10 minutes), ~$0.30 for confirmation within three blocks (about half an hour) and ~$0.06 for confirmation within six blocks (about an hour)"

    Sometimes that is true but those are probably the lowest fees I've seen at least in recent years. Mornings it seems to be higher, it may be $10 for premium speed and people pay it. By bundling outgoing transactions the exchanges are able to save money. Best time for a low fee is usually in the evening in usa. Weekends might be good too
    The fees I quoted were for a $25 transaction and copied from bitcoinfees.info. They were current at the time I wrote my earlier comment. As I write this, fees for the same $25 transaction are $0.56 (w/i 10 min), $0.51 (w/i 30 min), and $0.30 (w/i 60 min). If you're paying $10 for a transaction, I respectfully suggest that you're either moving a lot more money than a typical PR donation or you're being taken to the cleaners. I hope it's not the later.

    But the real point I'm making is that Bitcoin transaction fees are 1) variable, not fixed, and 2) quite small for the sizes of transactions that would be a typical PR donation. I would hate for any PR member to think they need to spend $20 to donate $10 to PR.

    BTW, the Average Dollars per Transaction chart at bitcoinfees.info shows that $10/transaction hasn't been common since January 2018.
    Last edited by dtek; 3 Days Ago at 02:39 PM.
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  15. #35
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    I didn't say $10 fee was common, I said I saw someone pay that not long ago. My point was that fees vary a lot, they seem to vary with the time of day and also of course with volume of transactions going on. The fee does not go up with the size of the transfer, you can send 10k as cheaply as $10. It is based on the number of inputs plus factoring in the size of the mem pool.

    If your fee looks high then wait a bit later in the day and try again

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