12 Experts Questioning the Coronavirus Panic

Recommended Pharmacies on Pharmacy Reviewer

Myrtle

Lapsed Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2016
Posts
83
Prepare for the gaslighting. https://forge.medium.com/prepare-for-the-ultimate-gaslighting-6a8ce3f0a0e0
“Pretty soon, as the country begins to figure out how we “open back up” and move forward, very powerful forces will try to convince us all to get back to normal. (That never happened. What are you talking about?) Billions of dollars will be spent on advertising, messaging, and television and media content to make you feel comfortable again. It will come in the traditional forms — a billboard here, a hundred commercials there — and in new-media forms: a 2020–2021 generation of memes to remind you that what you want again is normalcy. In truth, you want the feeling of normalcy, and we all want it. We want desperately to feel good again, to get back to the routines of life, to not lie in bed at night wondering how we’re going to afford our rent and bills, to not wake to an endless scroll of human tragedy on our phones, to have a cup of perfectly brewed coffee and simply leave the house for work. The need for comfort will be real, and it will be strong. And every brand in America will come to your rescue, dear consumer, to help take away that darkness and get life back to the way it was before the crisis. I urge you to be well aware of what is coming.”
 

Gullible

Exalted member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Posts
2,599
Meh, we will get back to normal and it will once again be strange to see people wearing masks. I say by end of year we will be there. There will still be some people getting sick and a few deaths but keep in mind normal flu kills from 40,000 to 80,000 a year in usa alone. When is the last time you heard of a normal flu death? No, they are all counted as wuhan flu to get more federal dollars. If we lose more than 80k from this and not from padding the figures, I will be surprised.
 

Maskell

Honorable member
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Posts
429
The MSM is finally catching up...

"But as hospital virus deaths climb, a Daily Mail investigation has found that the New York casualty doctor's unorthodox views [Dr Cameron Kyle-Sidell], far from being crazy, might be the very opposite - and the key to preventing deaths.

"The death rate for those treated on ventilators is devastating. In one British study of 98 Covid-19 patients who were put on them or on similarly invasive breathing-support equipment, two-thirds died, according to a new report by our Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre..."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8230775/

Is this proof "life-saving" ventilators are actually deathtraps? Their success rate is appalling and medics are increasingly worried they may do more harm than good, disturbing report reveals

- Serious doubts have been raised about the effectiveness of ventilators
- Ventilators are a standard treatment for the deadly lung infection pneumonia
- In New York, 80 per cent of ventilated patients failed to recover


His face contorted with worry, a young casualty doctor sends a desperate message to the world. He has watched over the beds of hundreds of coronavirus patients, and now believes they are dying because of the very treatment that is meant to save them.

After being rushed into hospital, they are knocked out by sedatives delivered through a throat tube as a ventilator mechanically pumps their lungs to send oxygen into their bodies.

It is a standard treatment for the deadly lung infection pneumonia, and one that was first used for Covid-19 patients in China, then in Europe and now here in Britain.

Yet, in a frank YouTube video, the New York casualty doctor Cameron Kyle-Sidell has broken ranks with the medical establishment and warns it is wrong to use ventilators in this way...
 

jannie

Lapsed Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Posts
373
The main point of shutting down is to slow down the spread of the virus, (1) to buy time for a cure and, (2) more importantly to flatten the peak rush of hospital need, as recovery chance is much better when a hospitalized patient can be given due care.

Without an effective cure or vaccine, it is inevitable that this virus will visit 80% of us. If it hits all of us at once, then the hospitals will be overburdened to their ears, and prognosis for those hospitalized patients would be quite poor. So, even if it is impossible to stop this from spreading, it is vitally important to slow its spreading speed down.

When we gain half the herd immunity where a significant portion of the population has already got infected, then the speed of spread of disease will slow down all by itself even without a shutdown. I guess in 3 months or so we might get to that point and then the problem will be reduced to just protecting the elderly and the weak. Just my opinion.

At this point there is no evidence that herd immunity will take place, and if it did the best guess is it would only last 4 months at the most. The only way out of this is a vaccine and hope the virus doesn't mutant by the time one is made. Even at that point, only medical professionals and high risk individuals will have access to it. I prefer to listen to the experts in the field, not conspiracy theories.
 

Maskell

Honorable member
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Posts
429
I prefer to listen to the experts in the field, not conspiracy theories.

It was the British government's scientific "experts" that recommended the disastrous policy of "herd immunity" that you've just been busy rubbishing!

That's why on March 11 - the very day the WHO officially declared a global pandemic - the government decided to allow huge mass gatherings to go ahead including the Cheltenham Festival, football matches and pop concerts.

Then they recommended sending thousands of elderly people out of hospitals where coronavirus is rife and back into care homes without testing them for the virus. As a result of that insane policy there have been thousands of easily avoidable coronavirus deaths in British care homes.

And now they've advised that the country should be locked down, yet our airports remain inexplicably open to hundreds of thousands of people flying in unchecked from all round the world including corona-ravaged places like China, Italy and New York.

Yep, three cheers for the experts!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8204277/

Our medical and scientific experts haven't exactly covered themselves in glory through this crisis.

As the Reuters investigation shows, they were disastrously slow to act on the health crisis, and that shamefully complacent response cost us hugely valuable time to properly prepare for enough tests, PPE, and ventilators.

Then they advised an even more disastrous policy of "herd immunity" that would have deliberately infected as many people as possible, and, they only belatedly realised, would have cost up to 500,000 lives.

(This is why Cheltenham went ahead, and many who attended caught the virus)

They also advised we should stop all testing on non-hospitalised coronavirus cases, in direct contradiction of World Health Organisation guidance based on how countries like China and South Korea had successfully combated the virus – only to then humiliatingly reverse that policy a few days later.

Now, they've advised we should be in lockdown, yet we're not really in lockdown at all.

Our airports remain inexplicably open to 1000s of people flying in unchecked from all round the world including corona-ravaged places like China, Italy and New York.

And millions of Britain's non-essential workers are still being urged to go out to work, despite the endless "STAY AT HOME!" mantra.

In doing so, they are cramming like sardines onto public transport and exposing themselves and many essential workers like NHS staff to risk of infection.

None of this makes any sense, and it certainly isn't a lockdown of the kind we've seen in so many other countries.

Yet still our ministers hide behind "following the science" when following common bloody sense would clearly seem a much smarter option.

The UK's death toll in this war is escalating dramatically, and I fear that is entirely down to our lack of proper preparation and our ongoing failure of leadership...

It's looking more and more evident that Britain has got this horribly wrong from start to finish, and I suspect that's one of the reasons why some people continue to defy government advice on vital things like social distancing – they just don't believe what they're being told...

It's way past time our parrot-like ministers got a grip, stopped passing decision-making accountability to increasingly discredited "experts", and did what they're paid to do: LEAD.
 

toby

Eminent member
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Posts
1,368
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/health/coronavirus-remdesivir-trial/index.html

Here's the 'anecdotal drug' that is having the best results so far--Remdesivir. That is proof that there were never 'Cloroquine deniers', even if you don't believe the reports of the meagre results by a 2nd French trial of HCQ, which didn't stop Macron from extending the lockdown in France to May 11--the results were insignificant,failed.

I haven't heard Dr. Trump say anything about remdesivir, recommending it as another unproven drug that would indicate 'What have you got to lose?' It wasn't his idea, although he could certainly say that it was, he lies about everything else.

But this feces about anti-Trumpers trying to extend the lockdowns to ruin Trump's re-election is just that. If they wanted to stop trying drugs on people in order to prolong the lockdowns (which are being ignored by yesterday in some of the worst-hit states, typical of the shallowness of spoiled Americans), they would try to suppress the new Gilead announcements on success with Remdesivir--and which they are being careful not to tout as a 'miracle cure' either.

If the MSM is 'fake news' and 'leftist' and wanted to conspire with killing people 'to make Trump look bad', they wouldn't have released information about a drug that actually works.

The French study is also in the MSM, so I'm sure people can scream *FAKE NEWS* as usual. Here it is, though, for those who didn't see it, and don't believe everything Zero Hedge and Fox News say: https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/health/new-french-study-hydroxychloroquine/index.html It's primarily striking because, while Trump is right to say (if not caring whether it was truthful or not) that 'what have you got to lose?' that is meaningful only for those with otherwise certain deaths. This 2nd French trial did use critically ill patients, and the results are in this article. It was known that heart arrhythmia would likely occur, so 8 had to stop taking it.

Here's the most exhaustive update on these and other medicines being tested all over the world: https://www.laboratoryequipment.com...xychloroquine-Leronlimab-Ivermectin-and-More/

The term 'cloroquine deniers' of the right-wing is no longer heard either, because more successful drugs with the potential to save more lives would also be suppressed by the Dems if one was (and it wasn't anyway; it just didn't perform well.)

If Dr. Trump is going to push any drug, it should be remdesivir, but I don't think he cares. Except that he could easily say that he was always in favour of remdesivir, and get away with that just like he has everything else. But his abdication of responsiblity is growing with each new insane day. He proclaimed early on that he was 'not responsible for this', but decided that lots of other people were, placing blame as always on anybody else that he can manage to blame.
 
Last edited:

calgal99

Eminent member
Joined
Aug 22, 2015
Posts
1,352
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/health/coronavirus-remdesivir-trial/index.html

Here's the 'anecdotal drug' that is having the best results so far--Remdesivir. That is proof that there were never 'Cloroquine deniers', even if you don't believe the reports of the meagre results by a 2nd French trial of HCQ, which didn't stop Macron from extending the lockdown in France to May 11--the results were insignificant,failed.

I haven't heard Dr. Trump say anything about remdesivir, recommending it as another unproven drug that would indicate 'What have you got to lose?' It wasn't his idea, although he could certainly say that it was, he lies about everything else.

But this feces about anti-Trumpers trying to extend the lockdowns to ruin Trump's re-election is just that. If they wanted to stop trying drugs on people in order to prolong the lockdowns (which are being ignored by yesterday in some of the worst-hit states, typical of the shallowness of spoiled Americans), they would try to suppress the new Gilead announcements on success with Remdesivir--and which they are being careful not to tout as a 'miracle cure' either.

If the MSM is 'fake news' and 'leftist' and wanted to conspire with killing people 'to make Trump look bad', they wouldn't have released information about a drug that actually works.

The French study is also in the MSM, so I'm sure people can scream *FAKE NEWS* as usual. Here it is, though, for those who didn't see it, and don't believe everything Zero Hedge and Fox News say: https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/15/health/new-french-study-hydroxychloroquine/index.html It's primarily striking because, while Trump is right to say (if not caring whether it was truthful or not) that 'what have you got to lose?' that is meaningful only for those with otherwise certain deaths. This 2nd French trial did use critically ill patients, and the results are in this article. It was known that heart arrhythmia would likely occur, so 8 had to stop taking it.

Here's the most exhaustive update on these and other medicines being tested all over the world: https://www.laboratoryequipment.com...xychloroquine-Leronlimab-Ivermectin-and-More/

The term 'cloroquine deniers' of the right-wing is no longer heard either, because more successful drugs with the potential to save more lives would also be suppressed by the Dems if one was (and it wasn't anyway; it just didn't perform well.)

If Dr. Trump is going to push any drug, it should be remdesivir, but I don't think he cares. Except that he could easily say that he was always in favour of remdesivir, and get away with that just like he has everything else. But his abdication of responsiblity is growing with each new insane day. He proclaimed early on that he was 'not responsible for this', but decided that lots of other people were, placing blame as always on anybody else that he can manage to blame.

"Dr. Trump" can't pronounce remdeseivir, @toby, let's be honest!! He was basically hawking aquarium chemicals (yeah, I know, not really but sheesh) only a month ago - where did the all the $$ go for all the hydroxychloroquine that he and his buds spent for prisons (e.g. "testing sites") actually go? Okay, way too much politics for tonight! Hugs to you and yours!!
 

MRNUTTY

Exalted member
Joined
May 20, 2011
Posts
2,938
"Dr. Trump" can't pronounce remdeseivir, @toby, let's be honest!! He was basically hawking aquarium chemicals (yeah, I know, not really but sheesh) only a month ago - where did the all the $$ go for all the hydroxychloroquine that he and his buds spent for prisons (e.g. "testing sites") actually go? Okay, way too much politics for tonight! Hugs to you and yours!!

Dr Fox/Trump doesn't seem to even remember pushing chloroquine on the public now. The efficacy of which seems to have been unnecessarily killing people too.
 
Last edited:

toby

Eminent member
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Posts
1,368
Dr Fox/Trump doesn't seem to even remember pushing chloroquine on the public now. The efficacy of which seems to have been unnecessarily killing people too.

Very true, but it also looks as if Gilead's remdesivir may or may not be trending positively or negatively, but that the study itself has failed, supposedly making the stock market begin to tank again today with few gains, according to some this afternoon. More will have to be done. Apparently, FT has a big piece on it today, but they're like Wall Street Journal with miserliness--not even a single free article. But GOP msm columnists wrote up remdesivir when it was thought to be more effective, so that, although it's unfortunate that neither drug has proved 'miracle', the attempt to politicize drugs that would possibly save lives is particularly disgraceful. And that remdesivir may also not be anywhere near good enough proves there was no 'cloroquine denier' conspiracy against Dr. Trump, because if so, Dems wouldn't have wanted either one prescribed by Dr. Trump or one not prescribed by him to work--since the conspiracy is supposed to be that the lockdown is phony and that Dems love it and keep it going more or less forever, to make the economy not work, that being Trump's only real selling point. And that is what is freaking him out. Also, he apparently is personally suffering from cabin fever, a kind of morsel I thought would be suppressed. So that can be built up too: No golf at whatever course he wants to cheat-beat sycophants at.

A lot of those same people also absurdly behave as if the U.S. lockdown, about as sloppy as any done by even the least effective W. European nations, is somehow 'different' from doing a lockdown in China--which has mishaps, they lied, sure, too--but was mostly effective--and I just saw that Vietnam had swooped down on its population before anybody was half aware of it, and got it immediately under control. If people want to talk about an anti-Trump conspiracy via locking down, they seem to have conveniently forgotten that China, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Singapore, and S. Korea, were never concerned with whether Trump got re-elected or not, and the pandemic hadn't even surfaced in the US when they were dealing with it. They are also experiencing 2nd waves now, as in Singapore just this week, which had to lock down much of the city-state again. I don't even think the most poorly-controlled European lockdowns had such nonsense as 're-opening' before even the peak, much less the plateau, as has Florida. So they can go and hold hands, and show their ignorant 'pulchritude' on the beach again, meanwhile plenty of them are going to get it. Sweden's experiment does not look to be going that well, but it's a different kind of country, and the jury is still out--except the other Scandinavian countries have all had lower case and death rates.
 
Last edited:

Figuretheworld45

Lapsed Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
411
In My Opinion, This entire fiasco is Foolish. Politics and medicine do not mix. It is sad we have so many people listening to politicians and agencies for advise. Think about social distancing? Does a sneeze stop at 6 feet? Did the entire thing already go through the population 6 months ago?

This is all about politics and nothing else.

More people die of flu and other illnesses. Since when do we shut down the entire economy (US)? Since it is an election year (US) and "politicians" runs the country. What do they care? They have jobs, they won't lost their houses. Why are people following these numskulls? Yes the US election affects the whole world sadly. It shouldn't but it does.

Political nonsense. Worldwide corruption.
 
Last edited:

temmuz

Senior member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Posts
81
Sweden's experiment does not look to be going that well, but it's a different kind of country, and the jury is still out--except the other Scandinavian countries have all had lower case and death rates.
Sweden's experiment is disastrous. Don't look at the nominal numbers, look at the "per million" numbers. If we exclude some city-states with less than 100K population, then death per million numbers are as follows as of today:

1. Belgium: 576 (death/million)
2. Spain: 482
3. Italy: 430
4. France: 341
5. UK: 287
6. Netherlands:250
7. Sweden: 213
8. Ireland: 205
9. Switzerland: 184
10. USA: 157

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
 

Seychelle

Distinguished member
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Posts
668
In My Opinion, This entire fiasco is Foolish. Politics and medicine do not mix. It is sad we have so many people listening to politicians and agencies for advise. Think about social distancing? Does a sneeze stop at 6 feet? Did the entire thing already go through the population 6 months ago?

This is all about politics and nothing else.

More people die of flu and other illnesses. Since when do we shut down the entire economy (US)? Since it is an election year (US) and "politicians" runs the country. What do they care? They have jobs, they won't lost their houses. Why are people following these numskulls? Yes the US election affects the whole world sadly. It shouldn't but it does.

Political nonsense. Worldwide corruption.

Exploitation is the bread & butter for politicians; we know that going in.
The current pandemic has the potential to kill many people in a gruesome way.
Until science (medical pros) come up with a proven thereputic or vaccine, some form of distancing is neccessary.

>pls don't drink the bleach:(
 

toby

Eminent member
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Posts
1,368
Sweden's experiment is disastrous. Don't look at the nominal numbers, look at the "per million" numbers. If we exclude some city-states with less than 100K population, then death per million numbers are as follows as of today:

1. Belgium: 576 (death/million)
2. Spain: 482
3. Italy: 430
4. France: 341
5. UK: 287
6. Netherlands:250
7. Sweden: 213
8. Ireland: 205
9. Switzerland: 184
10. USA: 157

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Not quite sure I understand. I did just hear on BBC that Sweden's numbers are 3 times those of Denmark and 6 times those of Norway but, while I don't tend to support what Sweden is doing, the numbers per million are not that bad compared to the others with strict lockdowns--even if I only looked at your list. Finland has also been much more successful than has been Sweden. Maybe their wealth plus relatively sparse population have kept numbers from going sky-high. They do look a good deal worse than Switzerland's as well, in terms of case/death ratio, and Switzerland is even richer, but it borders hugely-infected France and Italy.

Or maybe you're joking. I cannot see that the nominal numbers don't matter, and Sweden is one of the world's richest countries, with universal health coverage, which could make it less prone to illnesses of all kinds. Probably does too. Anyway, I just looked at your link, and Ireland is much worse off case-wise per million but with 8 fewer deaths than Sweden--which would mean that Ireland also 'did better' since more cases but fewer deaths.

So what has really been proven about Sweden's policy 'not working' except that its immediate neighbours have far less. But then so does Greece, and it's anybody's guess about what the real numbers of tests are. But then its other neighbours, even if not immediately adjacent--Belgium and the Netherlands, have much higher rates of both cases per million and deaths per million, so I can't see what you're getting at.

I can only see that Sweden is not among the most successful in any of the numbers of cases and deaths, whether nominal or per million, but neither is it one of the very worst. They were very defensive--it was a fairly long feature which I watched with half-attention, but all sorts of officials and ministers--and there was a lot of that typically Swedish faux-cosmopolitan hipsterishness, which I've seen a good bit over the years--much more than Norwegians and Danes by a long shot--but then those countries were each other's possessions at different times--Denmark held Sweden, Norway and Finland; later Sweden held Norway, but it is usually seen as the more central, cf., Knausgaard's books in which he feels like a provincial going from Norway to Stockholm...But Stockholm is hardly Paris or London, etc. But they were briefly a world power with the Swedish Empire in the 17th and 18th centuries.

In any case, Sweden serves as the control group, the 'guinea pig', and if it is succeeding at its desired 'herd immunity', that would show in the future, wouldn't it? I see only that Norway, Denmark, and Finland clearly are the most successful given what we know currently, so that if Sweden's experiment is successful, it certainly is not at all convincing at this juncture.

So not necessarily disagreeing with you, at least not strongly, but don't see that you can call it 'disastrous' just yet, although it cannot be said to be 'doing well', despite that weird and tiresome condescending attitude that all of the Swedish interviewees had.
 
Last edited:

temmuz

Senior member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Posts
81
@toby

I just wanted to point out that Sweden, while not being the worst, is still in the top-10 list, which I consider as disastrous.

For some reason the virus seems to have similar effects in clustered countries. Race, climate, wealth, life-style, kitchen, eating habits, education level, social discipline/responsibility... I don't know why. But if we compare its "peers" Norway (37 deaths/million) and Finland (32 deaths/million) to Sweden (213 deaths/million) so much for Sweden's open herd immunity policy. And they are still very *very* far from herd immunity - less than 0.2% of population infected as yet, whereas 80% infection is needed for herd immunity.

BTW I think nominal numbers really don't matter. What really matters is the relative numbers. Otherwise one could point out a small town with population of 1000, which has lost half of its population to the virus, and claim great success compared to China - "just" 500 dead...

E.g. look at San Marino, a 34K populated city-state within Italy, with just 40 casualties due to the virus. But 40 people translates into 1179 deaths/million (1 in 848 died).

~~~~~

Edit: Talking about wealth and health services, I have looked at the recovery ratios of the cluster of peers. Strange results. Either reported numbers are bogus, or there is some unknown curious parameter affecting the outcome.

Sweden 20% of the patients recover, the rest (i.e. 80%) dies
Norway 14%
Finland 93%
Denmark 93%

Recovery ratio = [Number of recovered patients] / [Number of closed cases]

where, Number of closed cases = Recoveries + Deaths

~~~~~

Edit 2 : I prefer death numbers over case numbers as I take death numbers more reliable than case numbers, as the latter can be speculative. Each country can have different criteria to assess a positive case. Also they are more prone to manipulation. Whereas death is death - there is no speculation in declaring someone as dead. Also it is relatively more difficult to hide the dead.
 
Last edited:

Seychelle

Distinguished member
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Posts
668
Nominal and Per Capita numbers seem a bit off, Thinking rate of change regional numbers.
Sure got me thinking
 

Figuretheworld45

Lapsed Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
411
There are multiple Global pandemics every single year.

Lets look at the true numbers for the FLU and Common Cold alone? Do those pandemics count? Do we even have an accurate true idea how many people are affected over decades by these illnesses alone and the complication from them? Does anyone even care?

I wonder how concerned everyone will be once the election is over. Time will tell.

Forgive me if I don't take much stock in the "Experts" or "Media"
 

Maskell

Honorable member
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Posts
429
We wrecked our economy for nothing...

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/490659-ferguson-undermined-uk-lockdown/

'Professor Lockdown' Ferguson, UK's Covid-19 czar, admits crippling restrictions MADE NO DIFFERENCE – where’s the outrage?

The British scientist known as Professor Lockdown has undermined the draconian policy he unleashed on the world by confessing that Britain hasn’t fared any better in tackling the disease than the laid-back Scandis.

Professor Neil Ferguson probably woke up this morning breathing a massive sigh of relief because he hadn’t been ripped to shreds again in the British newspapers for this second time in just under a month – this time over his startling admission that there has been no significant difference in the levels of Covid-19 suppression when comparing the UK and Sweden.

During his evidence to the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee on Tuesday, he said: "They [Swedish scientists] came to a different policy conclusion based really on quite similar science. I don’t agree with it but scientifically they’re not far from scientists in any part of the world"...

So where was the indignation about how his recommendations f**ked up the economy and made people prisoners in their own homes? It certainly wasn’t to be seen splashed across any British front pages. Indeed, it was hard enough to find much, if any, coverage of this very significant news story on Wednesday.

It was buried inside the Daily Telegraph on page seven, running across a third of a page or less, with a very accurate subheading stating in clear black and white: "Professor admits radical Scandinavian policy worked as well as British policy of shutting down...".
 
Top