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cp2k

Senior member
Joined
Aug 28, 2020
Posts
66
This bill has headache written all over it for states, doctors, drug stores, and even pharmaceutical representatives. I don't see it going very far once the lobbyists get ahold of it.

The good thing is there is no chance this will be acted on in the next few weeks with Congress pretty much at a standstill. A new Congress has to be seated in January after the elections and all these bills "expire" and have to be re-introduced in the new Congress.

This bill reminds me of the Federal Highway Safety Act because this bill withholds funds from states that don't comply. That is the same reason we have the legal drinking age at 21 today. Reagan pushed through that any state with a drinking age lower than 21 couldn't qualify for a large portion of the highway funding provided by the federal government.
 

nobknee

Senior member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Posts
159
I wonder if doctors have a clue this Bill is out there. Like Orthopaedics and pain docs.
I rarely find that "doctors" and "have a clue" belong in the same sentence when it comes to pain and controlled substances. They suddenly turn into tweens at a school dance who won't do anything that at least half of them aren't all doing at once for fear of being singled out.
 

nobknee

Senior member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Posts
159
This bill has headache written all over it for states, doctors, drug stores, and even pharmaceutical representatives. I don't see it going very far once the lobbyists get ahold of it.
It's the lobbyists I'm most afraid of. PROP wrote this piece of shit. They've been pushing it for years. Each time it gets a little bit further. Evil people know how to play the long game. Just like Yeats said: "The worst are full of passionate intensity."

The good thing is there is no chance this will be acted on in the next few weeks with Congress pretty much at a standstill. A new Congress has to be seated in January after the elections and all these bills "expire" and have to be re-introduced in the new Congress.
We can't afford to sit on our hands though. The CDC just claimed that the "opioid epidemic" is worse than ever and that prescription opioids have not gone down since 2016! I mean....that's crazy talk.... They're getting nuttier and nuttier, and they're getting away with it. Many of the new Congress being seated will be the same incumbents we're calling now.

There is the bright side that this has been proposed and rejected before. The research is piling up and is more and more in our favor. Several solid studies in the last few years have demolished talking points like supposed high rates of patient addiction (reality: about 1%); high rates of prescription overdose (reality: post-mortem toxicology reports can now be scanned digitally; those scanned so far suggest virtually no ODs from oral opioids alone, but always in combination with other respiratory depressants in excessive dosages, most commonly alcohol---PSA: Do not mix opioids and alcohol, but that's why we have doctors, to do that kind of patient education to minimize risks). It's even been proven bullshit that oral opioids cause euphoria in most people.

We just have to start screaming as loud as Andrew-f*cking-Kolodny. There are millions of us and only a few of PROP. Unfortunately, they decided to pick on people who are often in too much pain to fight back. That is known as bullying. Andrew Kolodny and PROP are bullies.
 

djrick

Exalted member
Joined
Aug 17, 2011
Posts
4,064
Thanks @djrick. I have friends in PA. Time for this guy to not get re-elected. This really affects people like me who metabolize meds very quickly. I always have needed more anesthesia, pain meds, etc, even as a kid. I have 2 major surgeries coming up in the next couple of years and I’ll be damned if I can’t get the relief I deserve for my unique issues.
Best wishes to you for quality medical care in your journey. I am so weary of reading/knowing people not being able to get appropriate care, trying so hard but unable to cut through the curtain of red tape BS. We are all unique with individual needs, wouldn’t the world be dull if we were all the same?

I posted Cartwright’s info in the hopes that some PR members and their families and friends would let him know how they feel about this. Ahem, this is NOT a red/blue issue. The ONLY thing a politician cares about is getting re-elected so it is a fine time to raise awareness with the pols that the people are paying attention.

Get big money out of politics and a lot of this goes away. The people who ostensibly represent us in Washington cannot get elected without wiping the boots of the medical, insurance, finance, and defense industry. And they are happy to do it. What other profession can someone become a multimillionaire within 4-5 years? There is a whole list of elected officials where this has been the case, read a list the other day. Would post if I’d saved it.

Best.
 

cp2k

Senior member
Joined
Aug 28, 2020
Posts
66
I rarely find that "doctors" and "have a clue" belong in the same sentence when it comes to pain and controlled substances. They suddenly turn into tweens at a school dance who won't do anything that at least half of them aren't all doing at once for fear of being singled out.
Sadly a lot of this is a result of corporate oversight and control of doctors now and you hit the nail on the head. There are very few, if any, independent physicians left in most places today. Nearly all are employees of a hospital chain or other health care conglomerate. Some are paid a set salary, some are paid by the hour and all have massive oversight by their "bosses". I know in our area the hospital system controls every doctor's office except for one now. Every move they make is logged. Their goal is to see as many patients as possible in a day. In and out. You're just another number now. Most practices only have 2-3 physicians and rely on nurse practitioners to handle the brunt of the routine visits. Most of those are strictly "by the book" and rack up massive profits for their bosses by running every test imaginable.

Computers track everything.. come in with a sinus infection and don't give them the correct "symptoms" you're not going to get an antibiotic so you'll have to come back again in two weeks. If you've had an antibiotic in the last 30-90 days in most case they won't let you have another one. The restrictions are even worse for controls. Doctors are constantly scrutinized to see what they're writing and why.

My mother worked in the hospital administration industry for more than 20 years. I grew up around her office and doctors so I'm pretty good when it comes to "self diagnosing". I know my body and what I need when I need it, just like you do in your situation with pain. Sadly that isn't important anymore. You're right, it's all about profit margin and not getting "flagged".
 

nobknee

Senior member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Posts
159
Sadly a lot of this is a result of corporate oversight and control of doctors now and you hit the nail on the head. There are very few, if any, independent physicians left in most places today. Nearly all are employees of a hospital chain or other health care conglomerate. Some are paid a set salary, some are paid by the hour and all have massive oversight by their "bosses". I know in our area the hospital system controls every doctor's office except for one now. Every move they make is logged. Their goal is to see as many patients as possible in a day. In and out. You're just another number now. Most practices only have 2-3 physicians and rely on nurse practitioners to handle the brunt of the routine visits. Most of those are strictly "by the book" and rack up massive profits for their bosses by running every test imaginable.

Computers track everything.. come in with a sinus infection and don't give them the correct "symptoms" you're not going to get an antibiotic so you'll have to come back again in two weeks. If you've had an antibiotic in the last 30-90 days in most case they won't let you have another one. The restrictions are even worse for controls. Doctors are constantly scrutinized to see what they're writing and why.

My mother worked in the hospital administration industry for more than 20 years. I grew up around her office and doctors so I'm pretty good when it comes to "self diagnosing". I know my body and what I need when I need it, just like you do in your situation with pain. Sadly that isn't important anymore. You're right, it's all about profit margin and not getting "flagged".
I won't belabor a point too much that I've expounded on around here ad nauseum. But I just don't accept that as a valid excuse. Doctors take a professional oath to care for their patients, not to love, honor, and obey their administrators. Physicians are one of, if not THE, most powerful and prestigious professions in the country.

I'm not at all opposed to standards of care. Medicine needs a "book" to go by, ideally based on our best understanding of how to respond to various clusters of symptoms and patient needs. It'll never work for every patient, but there's something to be said for what we might call "doing things by the book."

And I'm not saying there isn't plenty of blame to go around, from the CDC and FDA, to the DEA and Drug War policy, to our unhealthy relationship with drugs as a society, and the merging in mental health of "tolerance," "dependence,"and "addiction" until these terms have lost their actual meanings in practice.

A few pain doctors have been made to suffer terribly for keeping their oath to patients. A significant number have been made to....well, "suffer" seems like a strong word, compared to what their patients go through...but I'm trying to be generous, so ok....many of them have been made to suffer fear of damage to their reputations. I imagine most fear coming out to colleagues as anything less than absolutely condemnatory of prescription opioids.

But I'm just not buying that poor widdle docky-wocky fears a spanking, so I ought to feel sorry for him. If even a significant minority of them stood up and called bullshit on this, for which there is ample objective evidence to back them up, it would do a tremendous amount to put the brakes on this. So, where are they?? As a profession, they've got blood on their hands.

None of this should be happening to the vast majority of doctors. They are being treated unjustly. But they have social power and we don't, and none of it makes a whit's worth of difference in our lives. If they weren't prepared to consider the ramifications of the Hippocratic Oath, they shouldn't have taken it. You don't cut and run when that promise gets tested.

Ok, so, yeah, I belabored anyway. Many around here have heard this from me a million times. But pain patients have a very Stockholm Syndrome-esque relationship with physicians. Stop identifying with your oppressors!
 
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ilovelucy

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Posts
13
Done. How can they possibly think that this bill will help with anything other than doctors prescribing less opioids because it increases their already high workload. Unbelievable. We all know drugs can and will be obtained illegally whether it be from someone’s legitimate prescription or street drugs. I truly hope this bill does not pass. I’ll post again if I get a reply from my Congressman.
 

Atron

Honorable member
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Posts
271
Thank you for the information nobknee . It is my belief that most members of congress don’t have adequate medical knowledge to make such decisions.

It is a matter that should be left between doctors and their patients.
 

cp2k

Senior member
Joined
Aug 28, 2020
Posts
66
I agree 100% that doctors SHOULD do what they know is best for their patients and always SHOULD focus on their oath and not on the political or employment related pressure to cave but we all know the opposite is true. Sadly we are a society of conformity. Ultimately those in almost any profession must compromise their own beliefs to maintain their own economic livelihood. Should it be this way when it comes to medicine? Of course not, but sadly it's going to be with all the big drug companies, etc involved now. This whole thing reminds me of the laws governing Sudafed because of it's use in meth. The Walgreens in our area got caught selling massive numbers based on the population so it got to the point that if anyone came in to buy more (even if it met the requirements of the law) the pharmacist would play 100 questions with them or even actually call the police in some cases even if the purchases were legal. I know of one pharmacy that would intentionally ring up the item twice to get the system to "reject" it and then call police. She ultimately was fired thankfully.

Sadly that whole thing has ruined every good cold medicine on the market today almost. My doctor use to prescribe me a cough syrup that was part hydrocodone, part psedophederine and something else. It worked wonders on a cold and would clear your sinuses in no time. It is still made today but they're not "allowed" to prescribe it anymore because of the hydrocodone it contains.
 

nobknee

Senior member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Posts
159
I agree 100% that doctors SHOULD do what they know is best for their patients and always SHOULD focus on their oath and not on the political or employment related pressure to cave but we all know the opposite is true. Sadly we are a society of conformity. Ultimately those in almost any profession must compromise their own beliefs to maintain their own economic livelihood. Should it be this way when it comes to medicine? Of course not, but sadly it's going to be with all the big drug companies, etc involved now. This whole thing reminds me of the laws governing Sudafed because of it's use in meth. The Walgreens in our area got caught selling massive numbers based on the population so it got to the point that if anyone came in to buy more (even if it met the requirements of the law) the pharmacist would play 100 questions with them or even actually call the police in some cases even if the purchases were legal. I know of one pharmacy that would intentionally ring up the item twice to get the system to "reject" it and then call police. She ultimately was fired thankfully.
The difference is that doctors have a whole lot more social power and prestige than pharmacy techs. Or even pharmacists. Or just about any other profession in the country. I don't buy for a second that they're cowering in fear of being fired. I don't even buy that most of them are cowering in fear of lawsuits or of law enforcement. Even the American Medical Association has told them to stop forcing pain patients off their meds. If doctors are so goddamn afraid, then why don't they bring their practices into compliance with the top professional association in the country?

If nothing else, their employers and law enforcement can't stop them speaking. Even if they feel they can't prescribe opioids, nothing whatsoever is stopping them from calling bullshit on this.

Edited to add: Yes, I am aware of Thomas Kline, who was investigated by the North Carolina Medical Board for defending medical use of opioids on Twitter. Kline himself has noted that such an investigation, over obviously protected speech, made outside the context of a doctor's professional practice, is practically unheard of in the history of medicine. It's such a rare exception that it almost proves the rule. Even anti-vaxxers didn't start getting defrocked until they published false data. It's not like anyone stopped them from expressing views contrary to the majority of their colleagues.

Climate of fear? Definitely. Climate of SO MUCH fear that they actually believe they will lose their jobs for saying we should resume treating pain? I'm not buying it.
 
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SCED

Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Posts
15
First, thanks for the advice. I did snail mail only because in addition to my back pain, I have construction workers in my ready-to-move in house in SC remodelling space so it’s useful.

When I first started looking in this area, it turned out that there was a guy who I worked with way back in 2000. He is an avid golfer as is his wife so they found paradise. When we started our quest for physicians (my wife had melanoma skin cancer and me with my back issues) he said he chose a “concierge doctor” as his GP. Basically for about $3K a year for both my wife and me, he handles all our wants and needs. My wife has a bad knee, so he sent her to an orthopedic doctor, who saw her right on time, gave her the shots she needed and done. Now other than her refills for high blood pressure, we haven’t been back since last Monday where both of us had blood drawn so he could see if there were any abnormalities.

Now I don’t go back to see him for 2 weeks, but I gotta tell ya, I will be a miserable person until then AND how do I introduce the idea of asking for pain meds when it’s been years since I’ve had a script for Tramadol? I’ve thought about a “slip and fall” story but I’m a terrible liar. What would you do?
Ed in SC
 

cp2k

Senior member
Joined
Aug 28, 2020
Posts
66
First, thanks for the advice. I did snail mail only because in addition to my back pain, I have construction workers in my ready-to-move in house in SC remodelling space so it’s useful.

When I first started looking in this area, it turned out that there was a guy who I worked with way back in 2000. He is an avid golfer as is his wife so they found paradise. When we started our quest for physicians (my wife had melanoma skin cancer and me with my back issues) he said he chose a “concierge doctor” as his GP. Basically for about $3K a year for both my wife and me, he handles all our wants and needs. My wife has a bad knee, so he sent her to an orthopedic doctor, who saw her right on time, gave her the shots she needed and done. Now other than her refills for high blood pressure, we haven’t been back since last Monday where both of us had blood drawn so he could see if there were any abnormalities.

Now I don’t go back to see him for 2 weeks, but I gotta tell ya, I will be a miserable person until then AND how do I introduce the idea of asking for pain meds when it’s been years since I’ve had a script for Tramadol? I’ve thought about a “slip and fall” story but I’m a terrible liar. What would you do?
Ed in SC
Ed it sounds like your "concierge doctor" is in the business of keeping clients happy. I believe if you have a frank discussion with him about your symptoms and issues you might get what you need. In this situation you're not asking for top of the line opioids and these doctors are in the business of keeping customers happy. It can't hurt to try because in the end he will know if you are disappointed there are other doctors available to spend your $3k with. Of course the quantities will be a big factor too. Your request will have to be "reasonable" given your history as you outlined in your other post I think you have a good argument.
 
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jc776

Eminent member
Joined
Jun 30, 2014
Posts
1,304
This is an URGENT action alert for all those in the United States! Call your representatives in Congress (you have three), and tell them to vote NO on House Bill 7701, the "Addiction Prevention Act." This monstrosity would severely restrict all long-term opioid prescribing nationwide, and cause heroin use, overdose deaths, and suicides to skyrocket.

Here is the text of the bill: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/7701/text

You can go here and enter your ZIP Code to find out who your representatives are. Then just Google their names, and their websites with their phones numbers will pop right up: https://whoismyrepresentative.com/

When you call, you'll get a secretary. All you really need to say is, "Tell [Congressperson] to vote NO on House Bill 7701." But, of course, you can add anything else you want to add.

For more information on the SAFETY of medically prescribed opioids, they can visit: http://face-facts.org/Lawhern/

We can't afford to be shy or assume someone else will do it. This bill's got legs. It's got significant bipartisan support. We HAVE to stop it! Please call immediately!

And then get one other person you know to call!
I'm a Brit but would like to do my bit, we have post codes not zip codes, can this little bitty britty person sign?
 

nobknee

Senior member
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Nov 19, 2019
Posts
159
I'm a Brit but would like to do my bit, we have post codes not zip codes, can this little bitty britty person sign?
Awesome! Thanks for offering to help us! There isn't anything to sign. It's a matter of calling or emailing members of Congress. I'm thinking it might make the most sense for you to contact the chairs and, if you're feeling ambitious, the members of the committees hearing the bill. Because for most of us, those aren't our representatives either.

Honestly, they may be so impressed that someone contacted them from overseas about this that they just might sit up and listen to you!

Here are the committees involved:
Ways and Means: https://waysandmeans.house.gov/about/committee-members
Energy and Commerce: https://energycommerce.house.gov/about-ec/membership
Judiciary: https://judiciary.house.gov/about/members.htm
Education and Labor: https://edlabor.house.gov/about/membership

And then here is a post from Jaders with some great info on contacting the committee members:

NOTE: The above link LOOKS like it goes back to the top post, but it doesn't. It jumps to Jader's post.
 

Gullible

Exalted member
Joined
May 15, 2011
Posts
2,551
Isn't it funny how the worst bills always have a good or reasonable sounding title? Who could be against stopping addiction? Well, anyone with common sense who actually read the bill would be against it but how many politicians have common sense?
 
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