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Seveere and Chronic Back Pain

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Inspector Lewis

Eminent member
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Posts
1,173
Hi,

Is it advisable to use a Chiropractor for Osteoarthritis in the spine, or can they cause more damage?

Have had two sessions and almost suffered a seizure caused by the pain after the second session.

Kind Regards

Lewis
 

Stevo1

Distinguished member
Joined
Apr 21, 2011
Posts
963
Hi,

Is it advisable to use a Chiropractor for Osteoarthritis in the spine, or can they cause more damage?

Have had two sessions and almost suffered a seizure caused by the pain after the second session.

Kind Regards

Lewis
i didn’t have any success with chiropractic & like you felt worse after adjustments (which isn’t unusual) but didn’t feel any relief in the long run. I have had better success getting massages from a licensed massage therapist. I try to get a massage once a week, it has been mostly helpful. Best of luck
 

Ellyn

Distinguished member
Joined
May 8, 2016
Posts
796
Chiropractic is helpful for some things, but if a person has significant spinal osteoarthritis, spinal osteoporosis or a frank herniation then chiropractic manipulation is contraindicated (World Health Organization). With any of these conditions the typical hig velocity, low amplitude adjustment can make the problem worse by aggravating arthritis, worsening a herniated disc or creating microfractures with osteoporotic bone. For other back issues chiropractic can be helpful. I found it helpful for my arthitic knees because it opened some space in the joint. Right now I am not seeing a chiropractor because I prefer to lay low during Covid.
 

Inspector Lewis

Eminent member
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Posts
1,173
Chiropractic is helpful for some things, but if a person has significant spinal osteoarthritis, spinal osteoporosis or a frank herniation then chiropractic manipulation is contraindicated (World Health Organization). With any of these conditions the typical hig velocity, low amplitude adjustment can make the problem worse by aggravating arthritis, worsening a herniated disc or creating microfractures with osteoporotic bone. For other back issues chiropractic can be helpful. I found it helpful for my arthitic knees because it opened some space in the joint. Right now I am not seeing a chiropractor because I prefer to lay low during Covid.
Ellyn,

A very helpful response that has helped me come to the correct decision. The 2 treatments I undertook caused me SEVERE pain to such an extent that it caused a minor seizure.

I have not had a TIA proper for almost a year and within 48 hours of this second 'treatment' I almost suffered a full seizure.

I have previousely suffered a significant traumatic brain injury and a stroke and was concerned that any pain or stress may trigger a Neurological event, which it did it seems.

The practitioner was very professional and I provided two recent MRI's and X rays so am a little disappointed I was not warned of the dangers inherant, as you point out the WHO advice.

May I ask your background? You seem to be very knowlegable about this subject.

Many thanks once again.

Kind Regards

Lewis PS Does your name have any Welsh connections?
 

Rally Pig

Senior member
Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Posts
69
See an orthopedic spine specialist, if it is nerve pain you will get an MRI, hopefully Physical Therapy and maybe an epidural injection will relieve the pain. Good luck I have been through it all.
 

Ellyn

Distinguished member
Joined
May 8, 2016
Posts
796
Chiropractic is helpful for some things, but if a person has significant spinal osteoarthritis, spinal osteoporosis or a frank herniation then chiropractic manipulation is contraindicated (World Health Organization). With any of these conditions the typical hig velocity, low amplitude adjustment can make the problem worse by aggravating arthritis, worsening a herniated disc or creating microfractures with osteoporotic bone. For other back issues chiropractic can be helpful. I found it helpful for my arthitic knees because it opened some space in the joint. Right now I am not seeing a chiropractor because I prefer to lay low during Covid.
Ellyn,

A very helpful response that has helped me come to the correct decision. The 2 treatments I undertook caused me SEVERE pain to such an extent that it caused a minor seizure.

I have not had a TIA proper for almost a year and within 48 hours of this second 'treatment' I almost suffered a full seizure.

I have previousely suffered a significant traumatic brain injury and a stroke and was concerned that any pain or stress may trigger a Neurological event, which it did it seems.

The practitioner was very professional and I provided two recent MRI's and X rays so am a little disappointed I was not warned of the dangers inherant, as you point out the WHO advice.

May I ask your background? You seem to be very knowlegable about this subject.

Many thanks once again.

Kind Regards

Lewis PS Does your name have any Welsh connections?
No Welsh connections!

I am not a back specialist! My background as far as this particular post is merely that of a person who has an extruded herniation with an annular tear in her lumbar spine, which was made worse by chiropractic high velocity, low amplitude adjustment. As in, a LOT worse. So much so that I stopped seeing that particular chiropractor after he basically brushed off my concerns that the adjustments were aggravating the known herniation (he already knew that I had an MRI-confirmed central herniation with nerve root abutment, which is not a fun thing to have). I did some of my own research and then consulted another chiro - an expert with this kind of issue - who told me that the conventional HVLA adjustments can absolutely make herniations worse. He also told me that adjustments to osteoporotic vertebra are a real no-no as they can cause microfractures or worse, and standard HVLA adjustments can also cause real problems with osteoarthritic vertebra because of the deterioration in the surrounding tissue.

What CAN help is very specific exercises to strengthen the muscles that support your back. I HIGHLY recomment Back Mechanic by Stuart McGill, Ph.D. He really is "Dr. Spine" when it comes to mechanical disorders of the spine, and his book offers an easily readable roadmap of sorts to spinal health, the things that can go wrong with a person's spine (including age related issues), and a basic program of exercises, in an appropriate sequence, to strengthen and stabilize the muscles supporting the spine without further damaging the spine in the process. I have found the book and program helpful. For me, helpful means that while I still have considerable daily pain, at least the pain finally stopped getting worse when I found the McGill program. I have discogenic radiculopathy, which is the most resistant thing there is to nonsurgical treatment (I am trying to avoid back surgery, because it can REALLY go wrong and when it does there is not much that will correct it).
 

Inspector Lewis

Eminent member
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Posts
1,173
Chiropractic is helpful for some things, but if a person has significant spinal osteoarthritis, spinal osteoporosis or a frank herniation then chiropractic manipulation is contraindicated (World Health Organization). With any of these conditions the typical hig velocity, low amplitude adjustment can make the problem worse by aggravating arthritis, worsening a herniated disc or creating microfractures with osteoporotic bone. For other back issues chiropractic can be helpful. I found it helpful for my arthitic knees because it opened some space in the joint. Right now I am not seeing a chiropractor because I prefer to lay low during Covid.
Ellyn,

A very helpful response that has helped me come to the correct decision. The 2 treatments I undertook caused me SEVERE pain to such an extent that it caused a minor seizure.

I have not had a TIA proper for almost a year and within 48 hours of this second 'treatment' I almost suffered a full seizure.

I have previousely suffered a significant traumatic brain injury and a stroke and was concerned that any pain or stress may trigger a Neurological event, which it did it seems.

The practitioner was very professional and I provided two recent MRI's and X rays so am a little disappointed I was not warned of the dangers inherant, as you point out the WHO advice.

May I ask your background? You seem to be very knowlegable about this subject.

Many thanks once again.

Kind Regards

Lewis PS Does your name have any Welsh connections?
No Welsh connections!

I am not a back specialist! My background as far as this particular post is merely that of a person who has an extruded herniation with an annular tear in her lumbar spine, which was made worse by chiropractic high velocity, low amplitude adjustment. As in, a LOT worse. So much so that I stopped seeing that particular chiropractor after he basically brushed off my concerns that the adjustments were aggravating the known herniation (he already knew that I had an MRI-confirmed central herniation with nerve root abutment, which is not a fun thing to have). I did some of my own research and then consulted another chiro - an expert with this kind of issue - who told me that the conventional HVLA adjustments can absolutely make herniations worse. He also told me that adjustments to osteoporotic vertebra are a real no-no as they can cause microfractures or worse, and standard HVLA adjustments can also cause real problems with osteoarthritic vertebra because of the deterioration in the surrounding tissue.

What CAN help is very specific exercises to strengthen the muscles that support your back. I HIGHLY recomment Back Mechanic by Stuart McGill, Ph.D. He really is "Dr. Spine" when it comes to mechanical disorders of the spine, and his book offers an easily readable roadmap of sorts to spinal health, the things that can go wrong with a person's spine (including age related issues), and a basic program of exercises, in an appropriate sequence, to strengthen and stabilize the muscles supporting the spine without further damaging the spine in the process. I have found the book and program helpful. For me, helpful means that while I still have considerable daily pain, at least the pain finally stopped getting worse when I found the McGill program. I have discogenic radiculopathy, which is the most resistant thing there is to nonsurgical treatment (I am trying to avoid back surgery, because it can REALLY go wrong and when it does there is not much that will correct it).
Hi Ellyn,

Please accept my sincere gratitude for taking the rouble to explain in such detail the dangers and complexities of 'back problems'

Its apparant that you suffer extreme pain, and I hope you are able to get some refief from it.

Not that it matters, but back pain is one of those intangible issues that can not be understood unless you suffer from this chronic and somtimes intense pain, no sleep, depression etc etc.

I am fortunate that pain relief is not seen as some sort of evil sorcery by my GP and he takes pretty good care of that as much as possible.

I intend aquiring 'Back Mechanic' as you have recommended and will let you know how it goes.

I am quite dissappointed that the Chiropractor was willng to take such risks with my mobility for the sake of money, I will be far more careful in future.

Once again many thanks for your time and informed advice.

Cofion Caredeg

Lewis
 

Doc Rogue

Distinguished member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Posts
511
Ooh, I’m not sure I should even respond to this thread, cause I definitely don’t want to cause any issue with those who regularly see a chiro and have a positive experience with them.
But my take is most of them don’t know shyt about back issues. I started going to one back in the mid ‘90s when my back pain first started to really affect every day life for me.
The chiro would tell me things like ‘oh, I can see several vertebrae sticking out, and your back is totally out of alignment.’ And then he told me my right leg was an inch longer than my left, which was the cause of pulling my back out of alignment. So he was going to have to really concentrate on extending my left leg to get me back to proper alignment. Huh?

But after each back and neck cracking session, my back pain for the next several days up to a couple of weeks, ramped up severely and I was in even more pain than before I had shown up there for treatment.
I stopped going after only 2 sessions (he said I’d need at a minimum 6-8 sessions to get my back in correct alignment).

Next step was to go see a real M.D.
After several Dr and Neurologists visits later through the years, still always in pain, and then after 4 surgeries and 2 fusions that failed to do anything for the increasingly debilitating pain, I finally was correctly diagnosed with Ankylosing Spondylitis by my Rheumatologist that my PMD had referred me to go see. It’s a painful disease, often hereditary - my grandmother also had it.
I am now on a biologic to slow the excess bone growth down, and hopefully won’t end up with a solid spine that curves me forward at the shoulders like it did to my grandmother.
Not to make this too long, but this chiro completely wasted my time, made me worse after each visit, and no - he didn’t correctly diagnose my issue. But he happily took my money.
I personally would caution others not to put too much faith into these quack chiropractors. If you walk through their door, of course they’re gonna be able to determine what your issue is, and they’ll always tell you it can’t be fixed in just one visit.

Also, my wife’s an RN and worked for 20 years in our local hospital’s ER unit. She’s seen more than a few people rushed in by ambulance over the years where the patient suffered a tear in one of the major arteries in their neck from the chiro when they jerk your head side to side to crack the joints in your neck. A couple of those patients ended up having a stroke, since the blood wasn’t reaching their brain.
Sufficed to say, in all of those cases the chiro basically destroyed these peoples lives, and they’ve all gone on to sue - and easily win their case in court, for the pain and suffering caused by the chiro’s actions. (She now manages/ runs this hospital’s Stroke program, and works with several of those people whose stroke was caused by this scenario).
I don’t mean to say that a chiro can’t help anyone, but I personally would never ever go to one again myself, nor recommend to an acquaintance/ family member or friend to see one for their back issues.
Instead, I tell them to to their regular doc, tell them what your symptoms are, and let them decide what the best course of action would be for you. Often they’re going to refer you to a specialist who can take a closer look and help properly diagnose you based on your symptoms, and it will often times be some form of physical therapy, unless it’s more severe such as herniated discs. Then it could be a round of a steroid taper and/ or some other meds to calm down whatever injury is the cause of inflammation. But I haven’t heard of one of them ever recommending someone to go see a chiropractor. Though I’m sure that could happen for some.
I just hear from more people who have had worsening back problems after seeing their chiropractor, than others who say after seeing them they are doing way better.

Just my opinion... but I think they can cause more harm to you than good. I’m sure there’s some here who would argue otherwise. And if that’s the case, I am happy that they’ve been able to help improve your suffering. But if you don’t get better, then maybe it’s time to go see a real Dr. And you’re right @Inspector Lewis, back issues is a very complex problem to diagnose properly. And if you don’t suffer from chronic back pain, you probably don’t know how debilitating it is to the lives of those of us who do live with it.
All the best to you and I truly hope you find relief as well.
 

Inspector Lewis

Eminent member
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Posts
1,173
Ooh, I’m not sure I should even respond to this thread, cause I definitely don’t want to cause any issue with those who regularly see a chiro and have a positive experience with them.
But my take is most of them don’t know shyt about back issues. I started going to one back in the mid ‘90s when my back pain first started to really affect every day life for me.
The chiro would tell me things like ‘oh, I can see several vertebrae sticking out, and your back is totally out of alignment.’ And then he told me my right leg was an inch longer than my left, which was the cause of pulling my back out of alignment. So he was going to have to really concentrate on extending my left leg to get me back to proper alignment. Huh?

But after each back and neck cracking session, my back pain for the next several days up to a couple of weeks, ramped up severely and I was in even more pain than before I had shown up there for treatment.
I stopped going after only 2 sessions (he said I’d need at a minimum 6-8 sessions to get my back in correct alignment).

Next step was to go see a real M.D.
After several Dr and Neurologists visits later through the years, still always in pain, and then after 4 surgeries and 2 fusions that failed to do anything for the increasingly debilitating pain, I finally was correctly diagnosed with Ankylosing Spondylitis by my Rheumatologist that my PMD had referred me to go see. It’s a painful disease, often hereditary - my grandmother also had it.
I am now on a biologic to slow the excess bone growth down, and hopefully won’t end up with a solid spine that curves me forward at the shoulders like it did to my grandmother.
Not to make this too long, but this chiro completely wasted my time, made me worse after each visit, and no - he didn’t correctly diagnose my issue. But he happily took my money.
I personally would caution others not to put too much faith into these quack chiropractors. If you walk through their door, of course they’re gonna be able to determine what your issue is, and they’ll always tell you it can’t be fixed in just one visit.

Also, my wife’s an RN and worked for 20 years in our local hospital’s ER unit. She’s seen more than a few people rushed in by ambulance over the years where the patient suffered a tear in one of the major arteries in their neck from the chiro when they jerk your head side to side to crack the joints in your neck. A couple of those patients ended up having a stroke, since the blood wasn’t reaching their brain.
Sufficed to say, in all of those cases the chiro basically destroyed these peoples lives, and they’ve all gone on to sue - and easily win their case in court, for the pain and suffering caused by the chiro’s actions. (She now manages/ runs this hospital’s Stroke program, and works with several of those people whose stroke was caused by this scenario).
I don’t mean to say that a chiro can’t help anyone, but I personally would never ever go to one again myself, nor recommend to an acquaintance/ family member or friend to see one for their back issues.
Instead, I tell them to to their regular doc, tell them what your symptoms are, and let them decide what the best course of action would be for you. Often they’re going to refer you to a specialist who can take a closer look and help properly diagnose you based on your symptoms, and it will often times be some form of physical therapy, unless it’s more severe such as herniated discs. Then it could be a round of a steroid taper and/ or some other meds to calm down whatever injury is the cause of inflammation. But I haven’t heard of one of them ever recommending someone to go see a chiropractor. Though I’m sure that could happen for some.
I just hear from more people who have had worsening back problems after seeing their chiropractor, than others who say after seeing them they are doing way better.

Just my opinion... but I think they can cause more harm to you than good. I’m sure there’s some here who would argue otherwise. And if that’s the case, I am happy that they’ve been able to help improve your suffering. But if you don’t get better, then maybe it’s time to go see a real Dr. And you’re right @Inspector Lewis, back issues is a very complex problem to diagnose properly. And if you don’t suffer from chronic back pain, you probably don’t know how debilitating it is to the lives of those of us who do live with it.
All the best to you and I truly hope you find relief as well.

Hi @Doc Rouge,

I have read your post in detail and I completely agree with your conclusions.

Having also suffering a Significant Traumatic Brain Injury and a Stroke I am careful when considering any treatment, even from a bona fide source.

I believe we all know our own bodies more intimatly than anybody, of course x rays and MRI's give a detailed picture.

As I think I stated after a couple of treatments from the chiropractor I was getting increased pain, but more importantly I felt that it was causing a negative response.

No pain, no gain may be a nice poetic cliche, but pain is a message from your brain that something is amiss.

Excellent post Doc, good luck with your back.

Kind Regards

Lewisfitness.jpg
 

Doc Rogue

Distinguished member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Posts
511
Ooh, I’m not sure I should even respond to this thread, cause I definitely don’t want to cause any issue with those who regularly see a chiro and have a positive experience with them.
But my take is most of them don’t know shyt about back issues. I started going to one back in the mid ‘90s when my back pain first started to really affect every day life for me.
The chiro would tell me things like ‘oh, I can see several vertebrae sticking out, and your back is totally out of alignment.’ And then he told me my right leg was an inch longer than my left, which was the cause of pulling my back out of alignment. So he was going to have to really concentrate on extending my left leg to get me back to proper alignment. Huh?

But after each back and neck cracking session, my back pain for the next several days up to a couple of weeks, ramped up severely and I was in even more pain than before I had shown up there for treatment.
I stopped going after only 2 sessions (he said I’d need at a minimum 6-8 sessions to get my back in correct alignment).

Next step was to go see a real M.D.
After several Dr and Neurologists visits later through the years, still always in pain, and then after 4 surgeries and 2 fusions that failed to do anything for the increasingly debilitating pain, I finally was correctly diagnosed with Ankylosing Spondylitis by my Rheumatologist that my PMD had referred me to go see. It’s a painful disease, often hereditary - my grandmother also had it.
I am now on a biologic to slow the excess bone growth down, and hopefully won’t end up with a solid spine that curves me forward at the shoulders like it did to my grandmother.
Not to make this too long, but this chiro completely wasted my time, made me worse after each visit, and no - he didn’t correctly diagnose my issue. But he happily took my money.
I personally would caution others not to put too much faith into these quack chiropractors. If you walk through their door, of course they’re gonna be able to determine what your issue is, and they’ll always tell you it can’t be fixed in just one visit.

Also, my wife’s an RN and worked for 20 years in our local hospital’s ER unit. She’s seen more than a few people rushed in by ambulance over the years where the patient suffered a tear in one of the major arteries in their neck from the chiro when they jerk your head side to side to crack the joints in your neck. A couple of those patients ended up having a stroke, since the blood wasn’t reaching their brain.
Sufficed to say, in all of those cases the chiro basically destroyed these peoples lives, and they’ve all gone on to sue - and easily win their case in court, for the pain and suffering caused by the chiro’s actions. (She now manages/ runs this hospital’s Stroke program, and works with several of those people whose stroke was caused by this scenario).
I don’t mean to say that a chiro can’t help anyone, but I personally would never ever go to one again myself, nor recommend to an acquaintance/ family member or friend to see one for their back issues.
Instead, I tell them to to their regular doc, tell them what your symptoms are, and let them decide what the best course of action would be for you. Often they’re going to refer you to a specialist who can take a closer look and help properly diagnose you based on your symptoms, and it will often times be some form of physical therapy, unless it’s more severe such as herniated discs. Then it could be a round of a steroid taper and/ or some other meds to calm down whatever injury is the cause of inflammation. But I haven’t heard of one of them ever recommending someone to go see a chiropractor. Though I’m sure that could happen for some.
I just hear from more people who have had worsening back problems after seeing their chiropractor, than others who say after seeing them they are doing way better.

Just my opinion... but I think they can cause more harm to you than good. I’m sure there’s some here who would argue otherwise. And if that’s the case, I am happy that they’ve been able to help improve your suffering. But if you don’t get better, then maybe it’s time to go see a real Dr. And you’re right @Inspector Lewis, back issues is a very complex problem to diagnose properly. And if you don’t suffer from chronic back pain, you probably don’t know how debilitating it is to the lives of those of us who do live with it.
All the best to you and I truly hope you find relief as well.

Hi @Doc Rouge,

I have read your post in detail and I completely agree with your conclusions.

Having also suffering a Significant Traumatic Brain Injury and a Stroke I am careful when considering any treatment, even from a bona fide source.

I believe we all know our own bodies more intimatly than anybody, of course x rays and MRI's give a detailed picture.

As I think I stated after a couple of treatments from the chiropractor I was getting increased pain, but more importantly I felt that it was causing a negative response.

No pain, no gain may be a nice poetic cliche, but pain is a message from your brain that something is amiss.

Excellent post Doc, good luck with your back.

Kind Regards

LewisView attachment 52210
And an excellent response @Inspector Lewis. I completely agree with everything you replied back with. Especially that no one knows our bodies as well as we do.

Sometimes even though it’s difficult when you’re sitting in front of the man in the white coat, with more schooling than you... telling you what he thinks is the best plan for us. We’re better off in some situations to tell them that we think they are wrong.
I’ve had to become a bit more bold, or better yet, I like to think of it as standing up for myself, and replying back as to why I don’t agree with them, and what I’d like to try or do, since I’ve either done that before and it didn’t work, or I know in my heart that another direction would be better.
It ain’t easy, but if you’re lucky enough to find a great Dr. who actually listens to you and takes what you say into consideration to come up with a plan of action.. well hold on to that one because from what I hear from others, I feel very fortunate to have found such a Doc who works with me and respects and values my input.

It makes all the difference in the world for our personal well-being.
You’ve been through a lot yourself, just what little I’ve read of your story. I hope you have a good team of docs surrounding you and that they give you the care you need to live the best life that you can.
All the best to you and yours!
 
Last edited:

Inspector Lewis

Eminent member
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Posts
1,173
Ooh, I’m not sure I should even respond to this thread, cause I definitely don’t want to cause any issue with those who regularly see a chiro and have a positive experience with them.
But my take is most of them don’t know shyt about back issues. I started going to one back in the mid ‘90s when my back pain first started to really affect every day life for me.
The chiro would tell me things like ‘oh, I can see several vertebrae sticking out, and your back is totally out of alignment.’ And then he told me my right leg was an inch longer than my left, which was the cause of pulling my back out of alignment. So he was going to have to really concentrate on extending my left leg to get me back to proper alignment. Huh?

But after each back and neck cracking session, my back pain for the next several days up to a couple of weeks, ramped up severely and I was in even more pain than before I had shown up there for treatment.
I stopped going after only 2 sessions (he said I’d need at a minimum 6-8 sessions to get my back in correct alignment).

Next step was to go see a real M.D.
After several Dr and Neurologists visits later through the years, still always in pain, and then after 4 surgeries and 2 fusions that failed to do anything for the increasingly debilitating pain, I finally was correctly diagnosed with Ankylosing Spondylitis by my Rheumatologist that my PMD had referred me to go see. It’s a painful disease, often hereditary - my grandmother also had it.
I am now on a biologic to slow the excess bone growth down, and hopefully won’t end up with a solid spine that curves me forward at the shoulders like it did to my grandmother.
Not to make this too long, but this chiro completely wasted my time, made me worse after each visit, and no - he didn’t correctly diagnose my issue. But he happily took my money.
I personally would caution others not to put too much faith into these quack chiropractors. If you walk through their door, of course they’re gonna be able to determine what your issue is, and they’ll always tell you it can’t be fixed in just one visit.

Also, my wife’s an RN and worked for 20 years in our local hospital’s ER unit. She’s seen more than a few people rushed in by ambulance over the years where the patient suffered a tear in one of the major arteries in their neck from the chiro when they jerk your head side to side to crack the joints in your neck. A couple of those patients ended up having a stroke, since the blood wasn’t reaching their brain.
Sufficed to say, in all of those cases the chiro basically destroyed these peoples lives, and they’ve all gone on to sue - and easily win their case in court, for the pain and suffering caused by the chiro’s actions. (She now manages/ runs this hospital’s Stroke program, and works with several of those people whose stroke was caused by this scenario).
I don’t mean to say that a chiro can’t help anyone, but I personally would never ever go to one again myself, nor recommend to an acquaintance/ family member or friend to see one for their back issues.
Instead, I tell them to to their regular doc, tell them what your symptoms are, and let them decide what the best course of action would be for you. Often they’re going to refer you to a specialist who can take a closer look and help properly diagnose you based on your symptoms, and it will often times be some form of physical therapy, unless it’s more severe such as herniated discs. Then it could be a round of a steroid taper and/ or some other meds to calm down whatever injury is the cause of inflammation. But I haven’t heard of one of them ever recommending someone to go see a chiropractor. Though I’m sure that could happen for some.
I just hear from more people who have had worsening back problems after seeing their chiropractor, than others who say after seeing them they are doing way better.

Just my opinion... but I think they can cause more harm to you than good. I’m sure there’s some here who would argue otherwise. And if that’s the case, I am happy that they’ve been able to help improve your suffering. But if you don’t get better, then maybe it’s time to go see a real Dr. And you’re right @Inspector Lewis, back issues is a very complex problem to diagnose properly. And if you don’t suffer from chronic back pain, you probably don’t know how debilitating it is to the lives of those of us who do live with it.
All the best to you and I truly hope you find relief as well.

Hi @Doc Rouge,

I have read your post in detail and I completely agree with your conclusions.

Having also suffering a Significant Traumatic Brain Injury and a Stroke I am careful when considering any treatment, even from a bona fide source.

I believe we all know our own bodies more intimatly than anybody, of course x rays and MRI's give a detailed picture.

As I think I stated after a couple of treatments from the chiropractor I was getting increased pain, but more importantly I felt that it was causing a negative response.

No pain, no gain may be a nice poetic cliche, but pain is a message from your brain that something is amiss.

Excellent post Doc, good luck with your back.

Kind Regards

LewisView attachment 52210
And an excellent response @Inspector Lewis. I completely agree with everything you replied back with. Especially that no one knows our bodies as well as we do.
Sometimes even though it’s difficult when your sitting in front of the man on the white coat, with more schooling than you... telling you what he think is the best plan for us. We’re better off in some situations to tell them that we think they are wrong.
I’ve had to become a bit more bold, or better yet, I like to think of it as standing up for myself, and replying back as to why I don’t agree with them, and what I’d like to try or do, since I’ve either done that before and it didn’t work, or I know in my heart that another direction would be better.
it ain’t easy, but if you’re lucky enough to find a great Dr. who actually listens to you and takes what you say into consideration to come up with a plan of action.. we’ll hold on to that one because from what I hear from others, I feel very fortunate to have found such a Doc who works with me and respects and values my input.
it makes all the difference in the world for our personal well-being.
You’ve been through a lot yourself, just what little I’ve read of your story. I hope you have a good team of docs surrounding you and that they give you the care you need to live the best life that you can.
mall the best to you and yours!
Thanks @Doc Rogue,

I'm very fortunate in many ways, stroke treated within 20 mins, thick skull etc and I have a Doctor not afraid to address my pain, I'm in the UK BTW.

I have made a remarlable recovery after a riding accident on vacation in Jackson Hole, WY.

One is never the same person after a brain injury and the restrictions caused by this Pandemic tend to cause some problems, 'but' I have a caring wife who takes me out every day and keeps me on my toes. So with my wife, adequate P/K and reguler excercise I manage very well.

If people only understood that 'Not every disability is visible'



Take care

Regards

Lewis
 

Doc Rogue

Distinguished member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Posts
511
You are very fortunate @Inspector Lewis.
I too have a VERY understanding wife, along with a Doc who listens to me, respects and considers my input on what I’ve studied up in and read about others experiences with certain meds etc.
And he isn’t afraid to change up my meds to cover my pain. He even called my insurance co. once when they denied to fill my script. (New rule about the number of pills one could prescribe to their patient, and they would new lower numbers they will allow to be filled).
He called them right in front of me and asked the guy on the phone if he was an M.D. Of course he said no. He then asked if there was anyone else in the office who had their doctorate in medicine. Of course again the answer was no.
He told them ‘well I am a Dr, and do have my degree and specialized in pain management, so how could they deny his written prescription for the amount of meds his patient needs?

They approved the refill, and I’ve had zero problems since. Love my PMD!

it makes a world of difference to have a caring doc who doesn’t let the A-hole Feds push him around. I do fear he may get cracked down on someday. But I try not to worry about it. Hopefully it’s died down enough that he won’t get any trouble from them. He told me once if they come through his doors, he’s taken them to court to fight it. Said they have no right to tell him what he can or cannot prescribe.

I did want to mention too.. about your stroke recovery. If you can get in to the ER within 20-30 minutes of your first sign of stroke symptoms starting (remember FAST), the new procedures that has been discovered and used the last 6-7 years has made huge strides in stroke cases.

Some can even walk out the next day with zero cognitive issues. They have to either give you tPA, or can now go thru the groin area up the carotid artery with this tool,, kind of like these long steel line with little clamps at the end of it, that goes up into the brain, grabs the clot and pulls it out.
Freakin amazing. The sooner they can do that, the better chance you have of recovery. It’s all about how long the brain gets shut off receiving oxygen from the blood clot. The longer the clot is lodged in there, the worse the long term damage will be.

It’s pretty fascinating how far they’ve come just in the last few years treating stroke patients.

My wife is also on the stroke committee with Red Cross, as one of their speakers and advisers. She said as able to attend a stroke conference in Chicago a couple of years back. I don’t remember the Dr’s name, but he was from the EU and she was engrossed in his presentation he gave. She said she learned so much, and that you guys over there are 5-10 years ahead of us here in the States on treatments for stroke victims.

Really sorry this post has turned into a mini book. But you are correct! Even those who were lucky enough to get in early and get treatment, still deal with some disabilities that has affected whatever area in the brain the clot was lodged at.
And most of the recovering stroke patients she meets with every week, deal with A LOT of pain from their injury. The medical professionals don’t have it all figured out, but it’s an area they’ve made great strides in.

I’m very happy for you that you have a great support team surrounding you. That alone can have a massive impact on how well your recovery goes. And that isn’t just something that takes a few weeks or months. It can be years of making small improvements, re-learning things you used to do without even thinking about.
I think because my wife sees all the suffering with the patients she works with, she understands that pain meds are NECESSARY for this of us who deal with chronic pain in order to live as normal a life as possible. If I didn’t have the meds, I’d be in bed all day in a fetal position or writhing in pain. Life would t be worth living. That’s no joke.

Thank you for sharing your story. It hits home for me because of my wife’s work with those who have gone through the same thing you have. And she sees the struggles they deal with, and the massive amounts of pain some of them have from the stroke. So I really am thankful for you that you have that support.
And I hope you’ll always have a Dr who stands by you, and advocates for your pain med needs, so you can get through the day without dealing with the shifty debilitating pain! Our lives would be absolutely miserable otherwise.
Take care and keep us informed on how you’re doing and how the recovery is going as you continue to live and get used to doing things again. All the best to you my friend!
 

Inspector Lewis

Eminent member
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Posts
1,173
You are very fortunate @Inspector Lewis.
I too have a VERY understanding wife, along with a Doc who listens to me, respects and considers my input on what I’ve studied up in and read about others experiences with certain meds etc.
And he isn’t afraid to change up my meds to cover my pain. He even called my insurance co. once when they denied to fill my script. (New rule about the number of pills one could prescribe to their patient, and they would new lower numbers they will allow to be filled).
He called them right in front of me and asked the guy on the phone if he was an M.D. Of course he said no. He then asked if there was anyone else in the office who had their doctorate in medicine. Of course again the answer was no.
He told them ‘well I am a Dr, and do have my degree and specialized in pain management, so how could they deny his written prescription for the amount of meds his patient needs?

They approved the refill, and I’ve had zero problems since. Love my PMD!

it makes a world of difference to have a caring doc who doesn’t let the A-hole Feds push him around. I do fear he may get cracked down on someday. But I try not to worry about it. Hopefully it’s died down enough that he won’t get any trouble from them. He told me once if they come through his doors, he’s taken them to court to fight it. Said they have no right to tell him what he can or cannot prescribe.

I did want to mention too.. about your stroke recovery. If you can get in to the ER within 20-30 minutes of your first sign of stroke symptoms starting (remember FAST), the new procedures that has been discovered and used the last 6-7 years has made huge strides in stroke cases.

Some can even walk out the next day with zero cognitive issues. They have to either give you tPA, or can now go thru the groin area up the carotid artery with this tool,, kind of like these long steel line with little clamps at the end of it, that goes up into the brain, grabs the clot and pulls it out.
Freakin amazing. The sooner they can do that, the better chance you have of recovery. It’s all about how long the brain gets shut off receiving oxygen from the blood clot. The longer the clot is lodged in there, the worse the long term damage will be.

It’s pretty fascinating how far they’ve come just in the last few years treating stroke patients.

My wife is also on the stroke committee with Red Cross, as one of their speakers and advisers. She said as able to attend a stroke conference in Chicago a couple of years back. I don’t remember the Dr’s name, but he was from the EU and she was engrossed in his presentation he gave. She said she learned so much, and that you guys over there are 5-10 years ahead of us here in the States on treatments for stroke victims.

Really sorry this post has turned into a mini book. But you are correct! Even those who were lucky enough to get in early and get treatment, still deal with some disabilities that has affected whatever area in the brain the clot was lodged at.
And most of the recovering stroke patients she meets with every week, deal with A LOT of pain from their injury. The medical professionals don’t have it all figured out, but it’s an area they’ve made great strides in.

I’m very happy for you that you have a great support team surrounding you. That alone can have a massive impact on how well your recovery goes. And that isn’t just something that takes a few weeks or months. It can be years of making small improvements, re-learning things you used to do without even thinking about.
I think because my wife sees all the suffering with the patients she works with, she understands that pain meds are NECESSARY for this of us who deal with chronic pain in order to live as normal a life as possible. If I didn’t have the meds, I’d be in bed all day in a fetal position or writhing in pain. Life would t be worth living. That’s no joke.

Thank you for sharing your story. It hits home for me because of my wife’s work with those who have gone through the same thing you have. And she sees the struggles they deal with, and the massive amounts of pain some of them have from the stroke. So I really am thankful for you that you have that support.
And I hope you’ll always have a Dr who stands by you, and advocates for your pain med needs, so you can get through the day without dealing with the shifty debilitating pain! Our lives would be absolutely miserable otherwise.
Take care and keep us informed on how you’re doing and how the recovery is going as you continue to live and get used to doing things again. All the best to you my friend!

Hi @Doc Rogue

You are correct, a sympathetic and understanding GP is essential, they freely admit how little is known about brain injuries and the myriad of problems a patient can present with.

Of course our government does not interfere with our doctors treatment choice and if strong P/K's are needed, thats what you get, no insurance issues or worries about the DEA etc.

We have a differant system as you prbably know, we pay a very small amount of extra tax when working, and that provides a National Health System where everybody gets free medical treatment and medication for life.

I am against the concept of only being able to access the best medical care if you can afford costly insurance.

Again you are correct about the urgency of treatment for a stroke (FAST) and I was incredibly lucky that the Neurologist was talking via the pilot to the ground medics in Iceland so I recieved the appropriate treatment on an ambulance that stopped next to the aircraft as soon as it stopped, as I think I said 20-30 mins from event to treatment. Not bad from 35,000 feet.

That is only the begining of a long fight though, one which still continues in differant ways, 'but' it's better than the alternative!

AS I said before, not all disabilities are visible and when that chronic fatigue and pain sets in, negative comments and looks are hurtful.

I have no complaints, I deal with it the best I can as there is no other alternative.

Keep up the good fight Doc, and I hope things settle down in the USA soon, politically and regarding the pandemic.

Regards

Lewis
 
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