• Please take a moment to review some of the most important new forum features here and here

Sick of docs forcing us to do what we do

Recommended Pharmacies on Pharmacy Reviewer

smo1959

Honorable member
Joined
Feb 4, 2010
Posts
281
For all of the reasons above, I have become VERY distrustful of all physicians. I have untreated chronic pain due to spinal stenosis, herniated lumbar discs, and a lot of osteoarthritis...and probably some fibromyalgia thrown in. I have been insulted, blamed, and undertreated for so long that even thinking about it makes me angry. About a year ago, I just gave up and stopped seeing pain management and orthopedics. I don't feel any worse than I did before, and I continue to self medicate like many on this forum. I do not tell my primary care doc and will never tell anyone - not even my husband. I will continue to take a very popular medication that is getting harder and harder to source until I simply cannot get it any longer. Thankfully, I do not need it every day and am still able to maintain a relatively low dose. But I feel like I am forced to lead a double life.

So many people suffering unnecessarily. I have heard and read about so many sad stories - even suicide due to uncontrolled pain. It is a travesty.

I do not usually mention this, but I lost an adult son to a fentanyl overdose 3 years ago - "heroin" that was really fent. This is a pain that nothing in this life will ever touch, but I sincerely believe that the lawmakers and the medical community have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Denying patients pain control and a normal, productive, and comfortable life will do absolutely nothing to keep cheap drugs of abuse out of our communities. The politicians and bureaucrats have no idea how to address mental health and substance abuse issues so they go after the easy targets - the patients. And the doctors buy in out of fear of losing their licenses or of being prosecuted.
 

jaders

Exalted member
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Posts
2,674
For all of the reasons above, I have become VERY distrustful of all physicians. I have untreated chronic pain due to spinal stenosis, herniated lumbar discs, and a lot of osteoarthritis...and probably some fibromyalgia thrown in. I have been insulted, blamed, and undertreated for so long that even thinking about it makes me angry. About a year ago, I just gave up and stopped seeing pain management and orthopedics. I don't feel any worse than I did before, and I continue to self medicate like many on this forum. I do not tell my primary care doc and will never tell anyone - not even my husband. I will continue to take a very popular medication that is getting harder and harder to source until I simply cannot get it any longer. Thankfully, I do not need it every day and am still able to maintain a relatively low dose. But I feel like I am forced to lead a double life.

So many people suffering unnecessarily. I have heard and read about so many sad stories - even suicide due to uncontrolled pain. It is a travesty.

I do not usually mention this, but I lost an adult son to a fentanyl overdose 3 years ago - "heroin" that was really fent. This is a pain that nothing in this life will ever touch, but I sincerely believe that the lawmakers and the medical community have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Denying patients pain control and a normal, productive, and comfortable life will do absolutely nothing to keep cheap drugs of abuse out of our communities. The politicians and bureaucrats have no idea how to address mental health and substance abuse issues so they go after the easy targets - the patients. And the doctors buy in out of fear of losing their licenses or of being prosecuted.

I'm so so sorry to hear about your son. I really can't imagine that, having no children of my own. You are extremely mature to not want to go after "everyone" despite the pain you've experienced thru an addiction issue. Part of the reason the lawmakers went after the doctors so much IS because of the young folks who have died thru opiates and rather than see it as "addiction" that none of us really understands, they choose to believe it MUST be someone else's fault that kids get a hold of PK's or any other rx that can be used for "partying."

I'm also so sorry that you are suffering because of no help from the medical community. They keep making medicine harder to come by, only ensuring more deaths, rather than fewer. I sure wish they would wise up. I wish you the best in finding what you need!!!
 

Musicmom

Lapsed Senior Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2019
Posts
105
For years my rheumatologist prescribed everything I need. Now she prescribed me Xanax and my pain doctor my opioids. They are both great. I prefer Valiums over Xanax but RA doc thinks Xanax are less addictive. Of course I don’t agree with that. And that’s what brings to looking for overseas choices. I don’t need to order very often but I like to have Valiums on hand instead of the Xanax. My complaints are so much less than most of you. I went through to other pain docs before I found the one I have. So keep looking, there are good ones out there.
 

nobknee

Honorable member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Posts
286
I prefer Valiums over Xanax but RA doc thinks Xanax are less addictive. Of course I don’t agree with that.

We need a whole separate "Doctors Are Fucking Idiots" thread. Or maybe a "Rheumatologists Should STFU About Addiction Medicine" thread.

Xanax and Valium have exactly the same mechanism of action. They're practically the same drug, except Xanax has a shorter half life, so Xanax actually tends to produce more withdrawal symptoms if you stop taking it abruptly (which isn't the same thing as addiction, which this doctor would know if she wasn't babbling outside her scope of practice).

"Less addictive" doesn't even have any meaning. Some people have a vulnerability to addiction; the drug itself doesn't CAUSE addiction, let alone cause it on a continuum like that. Vodka is stronger than beer, but vodka's not going to make you an alcoholic, while beer could trigger alcoholism just as easily if you were vulnerable to it.
 

jaders

Exalted member
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Posts
2,674
I prefer Valiums over Xanax but RA doc thinks Xanax are less addictive. Of course I don’t agree with that.


"Less addictive" doesn't even have any meaning. Some people have a vulnerability to addiction; the drug itself doesn't CAUSE addiction, let alone cause it on a continuum like that. Vodka is stronger than beer, but vodka's not going to make you an alcoholic, while beer could trigger alcoholism just as easily if you were vulnerable to it.

This paragraph illustrates EXACTLY what I mean when I say, we don't understand addiction. We keep thinking it's the power of the drug instead of looking at what happens in the brain of a person who becomes addicted. How can so many people take the exact same drug and some will get very addicted, and some could care less, even with equal exposure. That should let them know that it's just not the substance... I hope I reincarnate a 100 years in the future when addiction might be actually understood. :sneaky:
 

nobknee

Honorable member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Posts
286
This paragraph illustrates EXACTLY what I mean when I say, we don't understand addiction. We keep thinking it's the power of the drug instead of looking at what happens in the brain of a person who becomes addicted. How can so many people take the exact same drug and some will get very addicted, and some could care less, even with equal exposure. That should let them know that it's just not the substance... I hope I reincarnate a 100 years in the future when addiction might be actually understood. :sneaky:

Dependence has become pathologized. Even doctors no longer acknowledge the difference between normal withdrawal symptoms that appear when a drug is abruptly ceased, versus the all-consuming compulsions of addiction. They no longer even distinguish between withdrawal symptoms and the return of the original symptoms that the drug was being used to treat.

If a doctor cuts off benzos from a patient with anxiety and the anxiety returns, the doctor acts like that signals addiction, when that's not even withdrawal. It's just the logical outcome of stopping treatment. Withdrawal can be dangerous. It can be life-threatening. But it's distinct from the original symptoms returning because treatment was stopped.

I suppose, to be fair, there is a lot about addiction that we really don't know. But we do know that addiction and dependence involve completely different pathways in the brain. And we know that rates of addiction to various drugs have remained remarkably stable for the last 50 years that the CDC has been tracking addiction rates.

Both of which suggest addiction lies with the individual and not with the substance. Opiate addiction rates have been about 2% since the '70s. If the drug itself were the culprit, those rates should have gone up as more potent (or "more addictive") opiates became available. Instead, it seems that about 2% of the population is simply vulnerable to addiction if they're exposed to opiates.
 

jaders

Exalted member
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Posts
2,674
This paragraph illustrates EXACTLY what I mean when I say, we don't understand addiction. We keep thinking it's the power of the drug instead of looking at what happens in the brain of a person who becomes addicted. How can so many people take the exact same drug and some will get very addicted, and some could care less, even with equal exposure. That should let them know that it's just not the substance... I hope I reincarnate a 100 years in the future when addiction might be actually understood. :sneaky:

Dependence has become pathologized. Even doctors no longer acknowledge the difference between normal withdrawal symptoms that appear when a drug is abruptly ceased, versus the all-consuming compulsions of addiction. They no longer even distinguish between withdrawal symptoms and the return of the original symptoms that the drug was being used to treat.

If a doctor cuts off benzos from a patient with anxiety and the anxiety returns, the doctor acts like that signals addiction, when that's not even withdrawal. It's just the logical outcome of stopping treatment. Withdrawal can be dangerous. It can be life-threatening. But it's distinct from the original symptoms returning because treatment was stopped.

I suppose, to be fair, there is a lot about addiction that we really don't know. But we do know that addiction and dependence involve completely different pathways in the brain. And we know that rates of addiction to various drugs have remained remarkably stable for the last 50 years that the CDC has been tracking addiction rates.

Both of which suggest addiction lies with the individual and not with the substance. Opiate addiction rates have been about 2% since the '70s. If the drug itself were the culprit, those rates should have gone up as more potent (or "more addictive") opiates became available. Instead, it seems that about 2% of the population is simply vulnerable to addiction if they're exposed to opiates.

That’s my point. Addiction lies with the individual, not the substance. So withholding the substance from EVERYONE makes zero sense. What are the commonalities among those who DO get addicted, is what they should be looking at. I continue to suspect that addicts are indeed self medicating - supplying something that their individual brain may be lacking - and thus the rise in the use of MAT makes perfect sense. Now if
“they” could ever stop with the moralizing and judging around it...😏
 

Seychelle

Eminent member
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Posts
1,533
This paragraph illustrates EXACTLY what I mean when I say, we don't understand addiction. We keep thinking it's the power of the drug instead of looking at what happens in the brain of a person who becomes addicted. How can so many people take the exact same drug and some will get very addicted, and some could care less, even with equal exposure. That should let them know that it's just not the substance... I hope I reincarnate a 100 years in the future when addiction might be actually understood. :sneaky:

Dependence has become pathologized. Even doctors no longer acknowledge the difference between normal withdrawal symptoms that appear when a drug is abruptly ceased, versus the all-consuming compulsions of addiction. They no longer even distinguish between withdrawal symptoms and the return of the original symptoms that the drug was being used to treat.

If a doctor cuts off benzos from a patient with anxiety and the anxiety returns, the doctor acts like that signals addiction, when that's not even withdrawal. It's just the logical outcome of stopping treatment. Withdrawal can be dangerous. It can be life-threatening. But it's distinct from the original symptoms returning because treatment was stopped.

I suppose, to be fair, there is a lot about addiction that we really don't know. But we do know that addiction and dependence involve completely different pathways in the brain. And we know that rates of addiction to various drugs have remained remarkably stable for the last 50 years that the CDC has been tracking addiction rates.

Both of which suggest addiction lies with the individual and not with the substance. Opiate addiction rates have been about 2% since the '70s. If the drug itself were the culprit, those rates should have gone up as more potent (or "more addictive") opiates became available. Instead, it seems that about 2% of the population is simply vulnerable to addiction if they're exposed to opiates.

That’s my point. Addiction lies with the individual, not the substance. So withholding the substance from EVERYONE makes zero sense. What are the commonalities among those who DO get addicted, is what they should be looking at. I continue to suspect that addicts are indeed self medicating - supplying something that their individual brain may be lacking - and thus the rise in the use of MAT makes perfect sense. Now if
“they” could ever stop with the moralizing and judging around it...😏
How does one define the difference between addiction and dependence. Notwithstanding societal norms, how should this be approached
 

nobknee

Honorable member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Posts
286
How does one define the difference between addiction and dependence. Notwithstanding societal norms, how should this be approached

Dependence is the presence of withdrawal symptoms when a drug is abruptly ceased.
Addiction is compulsive use of a drug despite increasingly negative physical, social, and emotional consequences.

They don't even involve the same neural pathways in the brain. Addiction can be present without dependence; dependence can occur with drugs that aren't addictive.

For example, I'm dependent on caffeine, but I'm not addicted to it. If I skip coffee for a day, I get a headache, but I don't use it compulsively and it doesn't interfere with my life. If I'm somewhere I can't coffee in the morning, I just go without it.

I am addicted to tobacco, but don't seem to have much physical dependence. When I've tried to quit, I haven't gotten physical withdrawal symptoms. But I was hooked from the first puff I took as a teenager, and thereafter went to great lengths to obtain cigarettes, hide them from my parents, and find someplace to smoke them. I will spend money on tobacco before I'll spend it on food.

See the difference?
 

Seychelle

Eminent member
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Posts
1,533
How does one define the difference between addiction and dependence. Notwithstanding societal norms, how should this be approached

Dependence is the presence of withdrawal symptoms when a drug is abruptly ceased.
Addiction is compulsive use of a drug despite increasingly negative physical, social, and emotional consequences.

They don't even involve the same neural pathways in the brain. Addiction can be present without dependence; dependence can occur with drugs that aren't addictive.

For example, I'm dependent on caffeine, but I'm not addicted to it. If I skip coffee for a day, I get a headache, but I don't use it compulsively and it doesn't interfere with my life. If I'm somewhere I can't coffee in the morning, I just go without it.

I am addicted to tobacco, but don't seem to have much physical dependence. When I've tried to quit, I haven't gotten physical withdrawal symptoms. But I was hooked from the first puff I took as a teenager, and thereafter went to great lengths to obtain cigarettes, hide them from my parents, and find someplace to smoke them. I will spend money on tobacco before I'll spend it on food.

See the difference?

said drug is removed from ones own environment for a substantive period; remain non-seeker still an addict?
 

Seychelle

Eminent member
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Posts
1,533
No ready access. Does not occupy my thoughts. Still an addict?
 
Last edited:

nobknee

Honorable member
Joined
Nov 19, 2019
Posts
286
No ready access. Does not occupy my thoughts. Still an addict?

Meaning if the person isn't using the drug and it's not occupying their thoughts, are they an addict? I don't know, but I would guess not, if the person is neither taking the drug nor thinking about it.

One way I've heard the distinction described, as it pertains to prescription drugs, is: Does it make your life better, or does it make your life worse? If opioids make it so you can earn a living, and participate in your hobbies, and spend time with your family and friends, then it's medical treatment. If they prevent you from being able to hold down a job, consume your time and mental energy, and damage your relationships, then that's addiction.

Probably not a definition worthy of medical papers, but it struck me as useful.
 

Cartman

Lapsed Senior Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Posts
163
This is not a political reply at all. But I think it starts at the ballot box. Some candidates endorse more lax drug laws while others make it a point to show that they favor crackdowns.
As much as I hate the GOP amd Trump`s "law and order" BS on drug use, the Democrats are equally bad.

Unfortunately most of the general public are too stupid and selfish to understand the cost of these heavy handed policies on drugs that people need just because some abuse them.

Disregard of the laws and using the internet and decentralized payment systems is the only answer. Like weed, we need so many to openly disregard the law that decriminalization and rational regulation becomes the only way they can actually control it.
 

jaders

Exalted member
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Posts
2,674
This is not a political reply at all. But I think it starts at the ballot box. Some candidates endorse more lax drug laws while others make it a point to show that they favor crackdowns.
As much as I hate the GOP amd Trump`s "law and order" BS on drug use, the Democrats are equally bad.

Unfortunately most of the general public are too stupid and selfish to understand the cost of these heavy handed policies on drugs that people need just because some abuse them.

Disregard of the laws and using the internet and decentralized payment systems is the only answer. Like weed, we need so many to openly disregard the law that decriminalization and rational regulation becomes the only way they can actually control it.

HERE HERE!! What a great way to put it. Which is also why I wish we could tell our docs about it but do understand why that’s a no go. But in my state that’s EXACTLY what’s happening, even with the street stuff.

I laugh. I’ve been watching the natgeo show “to catch a smuggler.” It kills me - every time these folks find and pull some “drugs,” they talk about how they’re “saving lives...” Right. They don’t mention how MUCH their efforts are costing us and no matter what they “pull” I can easily go buy it on the streets anyway. So what are they really accomplishing? It’s like they have to continue to tell themselves that to keep doing this pointless whack a mole work. Also, despite their efforts, I do wonder how so much DOES get in.

@Cartman - you’re 100 percent right. As it becomes more and more out of control, we will FINALLY have to come up with new solutions.
 

onlyareader

Honorable member
Joined
Aug 6, 2012
Posts
290
Sounds like some people might've liked that one episode of Penn & Teller B.S., which also pointed out how drug criminalization does not work.
 

BillHicksIsGod

New member
Joined
Jan 11, 2021
Posts
2
@macy539 I couldn't agree more. Drugs are way over regulated in terms of who can take them and why. No one person or entity should be able to tell another person what is best for them, to include the use of drugs. And I mean drugs of any kind. Many refer to govt as big brother but they act more like overly concerned parents that want to control every aspect of life that they perceive as possibly having a negative impact in life. They assume everyone would abuse drugs if made legal but those that choose not to do any drugs most likely wouldn't change their minds just because they are legal and even of they do, so what. For people that suffer with pain shouldn't be denied treatment because of things going on in society and how it looks. Its crazy.
 

pippi222

Honorable member
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Posts
372
@jaders funny, I was just watching “To Catch a Smuggler” yesterday and was thinking the exact same thing. Law enforcement folks seem to convince themselves they are heroes for “taking drugs off the streets” but it is as you said a whack a mole approach to the issue. Without a holistic, humane and scientifically-based approach to the issue of addiction and a reasonable consideration of necessary drug use we’ll never get anywhere.

For example, PBS stated recently the vast majority of illegal drugs manufactured in Mexico are shipped to the US for use by American citizens, while an estimated 70% of the guns used by Mexican cartels who manufacture those drugs are from the US. Vicious circle. Not a problem that can be fixed by finding a kilo here and there in some suitcase.
 
Last edited:
Top
AdBlock Detected

Ad blocking browser plugins interfere with some features of this forum. For the best site experience please disable your ad blocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock    No Thanks